[Zoide]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budley007 My 2 cents on soundcard digital out. We've discussed it here before. Bit-perfect digital output cannot be improved. You can spend $40 or a $1000 on a soundcard. Provided they produce "bit-perfect" output, you'll find no difference. The sound quality will be totally dependent on your DAC/amp and interconnects. Spending more money there will be a much better investment.

But isn't that belief the one that the whole concept of jitter is supposed to counter?

I had read in some other thread that, although you'd think that the same 1's and 0's are the same 1's and 0's in every digital out, the *timing* of them is extremely important. \

AFAIK, "jitter" is the error in that timing and the reason why an expensive source will usually have a better digital out than a cheap one.

 

[Budley007]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoide But isn't that belief the one that the whole concept of jitter is supposed to counter? I had read in some other thread that, although you'd think that the same 1's and 0's are the same 1's and 0's in every digital out, the *timing* of them is extremely important. \ AFAIK, "jitter" is the error in that timing and the reason why an expensive source will usually have a better digital out than a cheap one.

My definition of bit-perfect was meant to include "jitter-free". For example, Audigy cards resample the digital signal from 44.1KHz to 48KHz for it's S/PDIF output. This is what I would consider a "non" bit-perfect signal. (I'm not trying to pick on Creative Labs, there are more than a few sound cards that do this.)

The resampling introduces clock errors, (jitter and wander), which when converted via a DAC, manifests itself as noise. Any sound card that uses ASIO or kernel streaming will almost always provide a digital source with very little jitter if any. A good quality DAC can reject a consideral amount of jitter which was my original point. Provided that the output of the sound card is bit-perfect there's no reason to spend more money for a "better" sound card. The expense of those cards is reflected in a better quality onboard DAC/preamp which is what you'd be bypassing with S/PDIF outputs.

The topic was "Soundcard vs. Souncard + external DAC". My recommendation was that the money would be better spent on good quality external DAC, amp and interconnects. This, IMHO is a better recommendation, especially if you don't want to be tied to a computer as your source in the future. Thus the advantage of modular components. Sorry for the misunderstanding, (for which Edwood was so quick to point out

)

edit: no wonder I felt misquoted, my typing stinks

 

[CSMR]

Resampling doesn't introduce clock errors - it changes the 0s and 1s. Clearly, because you have to have more of them at 48khz than at 44khz.

 

[Budley007]

Non-interger resampling is not a perfect conversion.

 

[sygyzy]

If it is generally accepted that sending your PC's source out via digital (optical, coaxial) to a DAC is better (than straight from soundcard), then why is there always so much interested in soundcards? Why not get the cheapest solution you can that will allow you to output sound digitally. Onboard Soundstorm, Chaintech's card, or even USB.

 

[commando]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sygyzy If it is generally accepted that sending your PC's source out via digital (optical, coaxial) to a DAC is better (than straight from soundcard), then why is there always so much interested in soundcards? Why not get the cheapest solution you can that will allow you to output sound digitally. Onboard Soundstorm, Chaintech's card, or even USB.

Bragging rights, and people think they can hear differences.

 

[3lusiv3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sygyzy If it is generally accepted that sending your PC's source out via digital (optical, coaxial) to a DAC is better (than straight from soundcard), then why is there always so much interested in soundcards? Why not get the cheapest solution you can that will allow you to output sound digitally. Onboard Soundstorm, Chaintech's card, or even USB.

Also to do with price. It's cheaper to get a good quality sound card than souncard + DAC.

 

[Adriel]

Quote:

Why not get the cheapest solution you can that will allow you to output sound digitally. Onboard Soundstorm, Chaintech's card, or even USB.

Soundcards that support bit-perfect digital output start at $200. Generally the kind of person to spend $250-$500 on an entry-level DAC will spend the $200 necessary for error free soundcard digital output. Optimally, a jitter buster goes between the soundcard and DAC. That runs an additional $250 or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sygyzy If it is generally accepted that sending your PC's source out via digital (optical, coaxial) to a DAC is better (than straight from soundcard), then why is there always so much interested in soundcards?

There's bound to be soundcard interest on forums for multimedia, etc. Go to a less computer literate forum about audio, and there's little or no soundcard interest. But really, people figure out the benefits of a DAC all the time. But as they get into DACs, still others just start getting into soundcards. It's the same with multimedia speakers. People go from multimedia systems to hifi all the time, but the multimedia interest remains because others are always making their first entry into better computer sound.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel Optimally, a jitter buster goes between the soundcard and DAC. That runs an additional $250 or so.

You know that I hate people like you....

A jitter buster.....another thing to buy.........It never end....

Amicalement

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budley007 My 2 cents on soundcard digital out. We've discussed it here before. Bit-perfect digital output cannot be improved. You can spend $40 or a $1000 on a soundcard. Provided they produce "bit-perfect" output, you'll find no difference.

Sorry, this just isn't true. Proper D/A conversion requires two things: correct data (bit-perfect transmission from the transport) and correct timing (as good as possible). Most of the external DACs that are currently for sale derive their clocks from the S/PDIF bitstream. Given the right measurement equipment, there are very measurable differences between soundcards in terms of their jitter performance, and these will be reflected in the resulting sound. (Stereophile now publishes proper jitter measurements of much of the gear they review, which is nice.)

If you'd like to learn more about this, head over to the digital section of DIYAudio.com. There are lengthy threads discussing this very issue, and there are some very knowledgable folks, including the guy responsible for managing the development of the Cirrus Semiconductor CS8420 asynchronous reclocker.

 

[Budley007]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy Sorry, this just isn't true. Proper D/A conversion requires two things: correct data (bit-perfect transmission from the transport) and correct timing (as good as possible). Most of the external DACs that are currently for sale derive their clocks from the S/PDIF bitstream. Given the right measurement equipment, there are very measurable differences between soundcards in terms of their jitter performance, and these will be reflected in the resulting sound. (Stereophile now publishes proper jitter measurements of much of the gear they review, which is nice.) If you'd like to learn more about this, head over to the digital section of DIYAudio.com. There are lengthy threads discussing this very issue, and there are some very knowledgable folks, including the guy responsible for managing the development of the Cirrus Semiconductor CS8420 asynchronous reclocker.

Edwood already pointed this out. My definition of bit-perfect was meant to include inherent jitter that a good quality DAC could reject. Thanks for the info, I'll be sure and check it out.

 

[cadobhuk]

Why doesnt someone like Iron dreamer make a comparison of his modded HDSP and HDSP->Benchmark DAC,and tell us how much of a difference there is?Provided he can borrow the DAC from someone.

 

[3lusiv3]

Ok. So if all sound card digital outs are not equal, which USB or Firewire soundcards are considered better or worth buying for decent digital output?

Also, if you're not going to attach an external DAC, which USB or Firewire soundcards have a decent built in DAC?

I'm starting to think that an external DAC isn't worth it unless you start at the $1000 DAC's, which is way over my budget. If this is the case I'd be better off with an M-Audio Audiophile USB or similar without external DAC rather than M-Audio Transit with AOS Piccolo. The first option would end up being cheaper and possibly sound the same as the second option.

 

[richx]

Check out the ESI Waveterminal U24 - uses the same AK4524 DAC found on the (if I'm not mistaken) EWX/Audiophile/Delta44/DMX6Fire bunch of cards?

 

[3lusiv3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by richx Check out the ESI Waveterminal U24 - uses the same AK4524 DAC found on the (if I'm not mistaken) EWX/Audiophile/Delta44/DMX6Fire bunch of cards?

That ESI Waveterminal U24 looks like a very good choice, I hadn't heard about that one but I like the fact that they have a Mac OS X app for it.