[BavariaBarbarian]

I'm looking for a upgrade from my soundstorm onboard sound in the 100$/90€ range.
I don't have any sort of external amplification, so i would be relying on the card to reasonably drive my cans (Beyerdynamic DT440).

I also want coax digital out to connect to my speakers.

Searching the Forum brought up two likely candidates, the
m-audio revolution for 90 € new or a used terratec 6fire for roughly the same. They both have a dedicated headphone out, the 6fire has it quite conveniently placed on the breakout box and a volume contol.

So... which one am i to buy in regards of sound quality?
Revo seems to have many fans yet i don't read to much about the 6fire.

Also, what about upgradability?
Should someone on this forum suceed in bugging me into buying a headamp

would any of these cards work better with it?
E.g. could i bypass the amplification circuit on the Revo? - 6fire seems to have separate lineout.

Thanks in advance!

 

[labeelen]

BB,

Please take a very serious look at the AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1lt !

http://www.audiotrak.net/prodigy7.1LT.htm

It is €99 and has the following advantages over the Revo 5.1:
- Dedicated HeadPhone out (that can drive low-impedances)... and is very high quality
- Good monitoring capabilities (Revo 5.1 has none)
- High Quality drivers that are frequently updated
- Broader driver support (GSIF, E-WDM, QSound, ...)
- 7.1 capable (nice feature is that you can have both 5.1 set & HP concurrently connected ... they route front-channels to channel 7/8 for HP)
- DirectWire functionality
- Very high sound quality both recording & playback (line-out & HP amp out)
- Both coaxial & optical digital out

One area where Revo 5.1 (and Revo 7.1) are better is bass-management.

I returned my Revo 5.1 and bough the Prodigy 7.1lt

regards,

Louis

 

[Glassman]

- Dedicated HeadPhone out (that can drive low-impedances)... and is very high quality
* Revo has such too

- Good monitoring capabilities (Revo 5.1 has none)
* but who cares, none of these cards are particulary good for recording and it's not even our intention

- High Quality drivers that are frequently updated
* drivers are really good, however M-Audio's are pretty good too, I don't feel they lack anything and stable they are..

- Broader driver support (GSIF, E-WDM, QSound, ...)
* GSIF what for? E-WDM, right that's nice, QSound, well Revo has Sensaura instead and I bet they will switch to QSound sooner or later too.. what's important they both have proper ASIO..

- 7.1 capable (nice feature is that you can have both 5.1 set & HP concurrently connected ... they route front-channels to channel 7/8 for HP)
* with revo you can also have 5.1 speaker set plus headphones at once, well with 5.1 you won't get 7.1

- DirectWire functionality
* nice for stealing streams played back, however for such purpose one can make any Envy24 based soundcard support it by temporarily flashing it for any other card supporting DirectWire.. however you most likely won't use that feature at all in praxis..

- Very high sound quality both recording & playback (line-out & HP amp out)
* Revo has arguably better DAC and analog stage design I very much prefer to that of Prodigys..

- Both coaxial & optical digital out
* yup just coaxial if that matters..

 

[labeelen]

I've used both the Revo 5.1 and Prodigy 7.1lt so I'll try to make some nuances at the points we seem to disagree upon:

- Dedicated HeadPhone out (that can drive low-impedances)... and is very high quality
* Revo has such too
** I agree that Revo has a dedicated HP amp too ... I prefer the sound quality of the 7.1lt implementation.

- Good monitoring capabilities (Revo 5.1 has none)
* but who cares, none of these cards are particulary good for recording and it's not even our intention
** monitoring is not only for making recordings !. Revo5.1 is marketed as also being 'an ultimate card for gamers'. That was one of the reasons I bought one. When I wanted to do an on-line game with my friends using a 'headset' ... gues what: A headset uses a mic and a headphone. As the Revo's 5.1 design doesn't support monitoring you can't hear your own voice through the headphones & you don't have any idea how load your voice will sound for your opponents.
(This is the most important reason I returned the Revo5.1)

- Broader driver support (GSIF, E-WDM, QSound, ...)
* GSIF what for? E-WDM, right that's nice, QSound, well Revo has Sensaura instead and I bet they will switch to QSound sooner or later too.. what's important they both have proper ASIO..
** GSIF for GigaStudio; for the rest we agree.

- Very high sound quality both recording & playback (line-out & HP amp out)
* Revo has arguably better DAC and analog stage design I very much prefer to that of Prodigys.
** Spec's of Revo's DAC are higher than the 7.1lt ... guess what they're probably even higher than the DACs in my KRELL KPS CD player ... wanna bet which one sounds better ?

What do you like more about the anolog stage design of the Revo (compared to the Prodigy) ?

I agree with you that Wolfson & AKM have their own sonic signature.
Implementation & designs remains an important factor however.

Let me give you the ultimate example: I also own an ESI Juli@ that has the exact same DAC (AK4358) than the Revo 5.1. The sound qualilty of those two cards differs like night & day. Juli@ is much more detailed, neutral & dynamic. Still they are based on the same DAC.
To my personal opinion the 7.1lt sound quality is somewhere between the Revo 5.1 & the Juli@.

Don't get me wrong Revo 5.1 is a good card for the price ... I was just very dissapointed it didn't offer a certain feature I needed (and it took M-Audio's support 2 weeks to figure out it was due to a design limitation)

regards,

Louis

 

[Glassman]

so you own Juli@! I was judging revo 5.1 based on my experience with 7.1 and Juli@, seems like M-Audio screwed it up this time.. I really prefer AKM sound to that of Wolfson - based on my Aureon & Chaintech experience.. also if I'm right Audiotrak use voltage regulators for the opamps, now I looked at it once again and I see 7809 reg on the board, that would mean the opamps are powered by 0-9V, on regular 7.1 it was +/- 5V with the +5V shared with digital supply of the DAC if I remember correctly.. however this time there clearly are separate regs.. I prefer +/- 12V RC filtered as in most high end cards and Revo too.. also Wolfson outputs are unbalanced so that some capacitor have to be in signal way and here I see bunch of tantals that are not ideal at all for this purpose.. also using MSOP package for opamps is modder-unfriendly

what I like about 7.1LT is that they used better oscillator, at least one of the two.. I'd like to lay my hands on both Juli@ and Revo 5.1.. I'll have a chance early next year.. will be interesting..

cheers!

 

[BavariaBarbarian]

Thanks for the input guys!

Quote:

It is €99 and has the following advantages over the Revo 5.1: - Dedicated HeadPhone out (that can drive low-impedances)... and is very high quality

That's exactly what i'm looking for, so the 7.1lt has just been added to my list

The other features are secondary to that.

Of course, sound quality is very hard to measure and to a large degree subjective. Yet Auditrak is the only card to which i found detailed advertising on the headphone out specs... i take that as a good sign.

Only problem: I did a little research and couldn't find it anywhere. I only found the prodigy 7.1 non-lt on ebay and that was going for 140 euros...

So... indecision still going strong

Furthermore i got a bit biased towards the 6fire after reading this review praise it:
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2...s/index.x?pg=8

It also is compared favourably to the revo 7.1 in another review by the same fellow.

Any comments on that one? Anyone, pretty please?

Or am i stupid anyway, looking for good sound from my computer without going the headamp route? For that seems to be the consensus in many other threads...

 

[Glassman]

revo 5.1 will sound different than revo 7.1 and it will be much closer to 6Fire due to the same opamps used..

 

[BavariaBarbarian]

well, well confusion doesn't abate...

i've found another contender in the aureon space 7.1 which i've read is quite similar to the prodigy.

glassman: i saw you mentioned in another thread, that the aureon space had coax connectors (pins right behind the toslink).
if that's true i could just wire an old i/o bracket i've got lying around from an old sblive to it. i just can't find a board-layout of the space anywhere... could you give me a pointer?

man... if i'm fussing that much about such a simple upgrade i hope i never get into spending serious money on audio...

 

[labeelen]

BB,

The card-design of the Terratec Aureon 7.1 space & AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 (non lt) is almost identical (only digital-out differs, optical vs coax)

However driver quality is a BIG difference (AudioTrak has a much better reputation in this area)!!

I cannot judge Terratec's professional Phase xx line ... but driver quality and support on the Aureon product line is very bad.

Louis

 

[Glassman]

who cares about Terratec drivers when you can easily flash it for Audiotrak

yes, there is a pin header near the toslink modules on Aureons, it's TTL level signal, so you should use some kind of breakout, not just connect RCAs to that point.. I'm sure you can trace the signals easily once you have the card in your hands.. I knew a site with docu about that but it's no longear available..

 

[labeelen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman who cares about Terratec drivers when you can easily flash it for Audiotrak .

I know it's possible to Re-Flash Aureons & use the excellent AudioTrak drivers, but there are several reasons why you shouldn't:
- You would be paying Terratec for doing a lousy driver job ... and you'd hurt AudioTrak for doing an excellent driver job.
- RMAA figures on Re-Flashed Aureons are bad (I know it sounds strange but it's true ... tried it myself before I returned the Aureon & bought me the Prodigy 7.1lt)
- Price difference between Aureon 7.1 Space & Prodigy 7.1lt is nihil & the latter is superior in all areas. (apart from availability

but that should be solved shortly)

 

[sgrossklass]

While I have not yet received my Aureon 5.1 Sky (5.1 version of 7.1 Space), driver availability doesn't seem too bad with the latest ones being barely two months old. That's already much longer than the old XFire was ever supported when Terratec's driver support really sucked (introduction late 2000, latest drivers 5/2001, fortunately Hercules drivers of 2003 vintage also work; 5.1 Sky / 7.1 Space came out late 2002). And then it seems to be nearly impossible to buy the Prodigy 7.1(LT) anywhere here in .de, while Terratecs can be considered ubiquitous (good used deals on cards like the 5.1 Sky included, which is something the student's budget appreciates). RMAA results in the Digit-Life reviews of the Aureon 7.1 Space and Prodigy 7.1 are largely very similar except for a .7 dB drop @20 kHz and a noticeably noisier line-in on the Terratec. I'd consider it strange if sound on playback were dramatically different between these cards. (I don't know what kind of opamps the Prodigy uses, the Terratec has 4580s.)

 

[BavariaBarbarian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman yes, there is a pin header near the toslink modules on Aureons, it's TTL level signal, so you should use some kind of breakout, not just connect RCAs to that point..

Cheers! Will do. I'm not so sure how to trace the signals... but we'll see, when/if i try it.

So i think i shall do some more hunting for the audiotrak because of the better driver support, coax out and the ...supposedly... better integrated headamp.
Then, eventuallly i expect to get fed up with it and will buy a terratec and flash it

So thanks for all the help guys!

In the meantime i'll cobble together my first cmoy... this forum starts giving me strange ideas...

 

[Glassman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by labeelen I know it's possible to Re-Flash Aureons & use the excellent AudioTrak drivers, but there are several reasons why you shouldn't: - You would be paying Terratec for doing a lousy driver job ... and you'd hurt AudioTrak for doing an excellent driver job. - RMAA figures on Re-Flashed Aureons are bad (I know it sounds strange but it's true ... tried it myself before I returned the Aureon & bought me the Prodigy 7.1lt) - Price difference between Aureon 7.1 Space & Prodigy 7.1lt is nihil & the latter is superior in all areas. (apart from availability but that should be solved shortly)

- I'm sorry to hurt Audiotrak, next time they shouldn't make better drivers and rather leave it to the Terratec.. wait, they will never be able to outdo ESI/Audiotrak

nevermind, not my problem

- no way this could be, the cards ARE identical.. any links?
- well Aureons were MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier to get here in Czech, dunno about situation abroad, if the difference is too small I'd decide based on wheter I want toslink or coax..

 

[labeelen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman - no way this could be, the cards ARE identical.. any links? - well Aureons were MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier to get here in Czech, dunno about situation abroad, if the difference is too small I'd decide based on wheter I want toslink or coax..

- I did the RMAA's myself ... I'll have to dig in some old back-ups to find them (I'll attach them later). I was as confused as you are because boards are 'almost' identical.
- I agree that 7.1 is more expensive, but not the 7.1lt !

For availability check the posts on: http://www.esiforum.com/show.asp?db=...mode=0&msg=398

In Europe they are available now ... US in januari.