[Watchdog]

I've had my eye on the Karma since it has the ability to play FLAC, but now I'm not so sure, plus now my iPod can play Apple Lossless.

I realize that everyone's opinion is subjective and what matters is how the player sounds to me. But unlike traditional hi-fi equipment, it's not easy to walk into a store and listen to a DAP. Most don't have music on them. The IHP-120 I saw did have a test track on it, but it must have been poorly recorded because it sounded awful and I want to believe the player is capable of sounding much better than it did on that one lousy track.

 

[AndyH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorman Just to let you know: http://forums-riovolution.com/index....=0&#entry56479

LOL, got a good chuckle out of this quote:

Quote:

....Karma just sounds cool with me, with the EQ trance + my modded Koss' Plug, it just sounds perfect..I've not hear any other DAP players except the creative Muvo^2 1.5 GB model..which it sounds alright..it might sounds better than the Karma with EQ off. BUT YOU CAN'T COMPARE players with EQ OFF. You Compare player with HIGHEST SOUND quality possible that the player can have. Karma wins. Ok lets call Rio and make them relase a firmware that make EQ OFF seting with the Trance setting or highest quality possible with the current 5 band setting so they can shut up -_- I don't know why those people compare DAP with EQ OFF setting, diff company will have diff EQ OFF setting.

What kind of utter nonsense is that? "diff company will have diff EQ OFF setting"? LOL!

 

[FenderP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchdog I've had my eye on the Karma since it has the ability to play FLAC, but now I'm not so sure, plus now my iPod can play Apple Lossless. I realize that everyone's opinion is subjective and what matters is how the player sounds to me. But unlike traditional hi-fi equipment, it's not easy to walk into a store and listen to a DAP. Most don't have music on them. The IHP-120 I saw did have a test track on it, but it must have been poorly recorded because it sounded awful and I want to believe the player is capable of sounding much better than it did on that one lousy track.

Well, FLAC and gapless is why I looked at the Karma, because if I did iPod, it would have to be WAVs. Now, after my initial complaint when I got it, as I posted in the other thread, I tweaked my EQ to this:
20k +12, 3.5k +6, 600 +8, 120 +12, 40 +12, and varied the width of each (20k 1.2, 3.5k 3.4, 600 2.4, 120 4, 40 2.4).

That made it sound close to the Philips. The Philips, which uses Dual DACs most likely colors the sound (all DACs do), and the only other coloring I like is the DBB it has. The Karma is flat (truly), and then you can tweak as you want. So far, it seems to be working. Maybe I had higher expectations unnecessarily, but I'd agree the Karma is more of a tweaker to make it what you want, whereas with others, you get what you get pretty much.

If I keep it, this'll be the one. I wouldn't even consider the iPod, although they now have lossless. I'm going to A/B a track lossless this weekend with a friend's iPod.

 

[gorman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyH What kind of utter nonsense is that? "diff company will have diff EQ OFF setting"? LOL!

First, I want to say that I do not share the aggressive nature of some of the posters at Riovolution. I respect Austonia and I do not think he's got an agenda or any crap like that. He gave a clear description of how he tested, giving everybody the chance to value his opinions for what they are.

Now, on to what you are saying... I'm not so sure it's nonsense. Since there's pretty much nothing out there which has a FLAT response, what the guy was trying to say (admittedly not in the most articulate way) is that maybe other companies' DAP come with more colored sound at No EQ level.

Plus, there's one quote from one of the Rio guys that states Karma has got the flatter response... and he always seems a very honest and open guy, so I'd be inclined to believe him.

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorman Just to let you know: http://forums-riovolution.com/index....=0&#entry56479

Thanks for pointing it out, I just responded to all the BS they've been spewing. I'm used to it though. People always take it personally when I'm critical of thier favorite toy. Funny.

 

[Sczervok]

Ah jeeze man, has this really turned into a flame between two forums?
Both reactions from both forums are kinda disappointing... those at head-fi a little too high up, and those at Riovolution kinda unwilling to accept...

Karma is known for excessive problems with having defects, and there's a slight chance you may have gotten two slightly tippie Karmas.. or if not, you just don't like the sound. But I personally have had no such experience, and I would guess you just don't like the sound.

The EQ shouldn't really do much.. what it sounds like at flat should be flat. After all, the equalizer should display that on all frequency ranges, it has boosted zero. Grainy sound? That's a very bad sign something is wrong.

 

[jet_fighter00]

I love my Karma. And yes, some people at Riovolution tend to easily get angry from people talking about the Karma. I am not one of those. I use the EQ to get the right setting and it sounds perfect. More perfect *Probably* than other DAP's. I am sure there are others that give me a good sounds. But the Karma allows me to customize it to my favorite. Also austin, I check out the DAP site everday. And I love your reviews. Please do not get this sterotype that all Karma owners say the Rio is the very best and are unwilling to even hear other peoples opinions. In fact, most Riovolutioners are just like me.
Also, in your major review, cound you note the Karma's EQ. You can say it doesn't have the best EQ off sound, but note that you can alter it with the EQ.
*I said probably, I haven't tested every player

Voicing my opinion,
Nick

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jet_fighter00 I love my Karma. And yes, some people at Riovolution tend to easily get angry from people talking about the Karma. I am not one of those. I use the EQ to get the right setting and it sounds perfect. More perfect *Probably* than other DAP's. I am sure there are others that give me a good sounds. But the Karma allows me to customize it to my favorite. Also austin, I check out the DAP site everday. And I love your reviews. Please do not get this sterotype that all Karma owners say the Rio is the very best and are unwilling to even hear other peoples opinions. In fact, most Riovolutioners are just like me. Also, in your major review, cound you note the Karma's EQ. You can say it doesn't have the best EQ off sound, but note that you can alter it with the EQ. *I said probably, I haven't tested every player Voicing my opinion, Nick

I've always said, if you love the way your DAP sounds, that's the best you can do. If the Karma sounds right, then go with it. Sound quality will always be subjective. I don't feel the need to put IN MY OPINION and TO MY EARS ONLY in everthing I write because it's redundant. I never claim that the way I see it is the only way. I offer my own opinion because I'm compelled to. It's certainly more trouble than it's worth sometimes. I know I'm more critical than most people. I'm a picky guy. People shouldn't get aggressive about it though, it's not personal. And if you don't agree, post why and move on. I do research on these players because it interests me, this is one of my hobbies and I enjoy it. I share my opinions because it may help other people and that makes it worth the effort. There's no personal gain here. DAPreview.com costs money out of my own pocket even.

Anyway, yes the Rio has an amazing EQ, more flexible than any other player. I'm still trying to tweak it to something that sounds more like the original CD material, but limited success so far.

 

[kelvinz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by austonia I've always said, if you love the way your DAP sounds, that's the best you can do. If the Karma sounds right, then go with it. Sound quality will always be subjective. I don't feel the need to put IN MY OPINION and TO MY EARS ONLY in everthing I write because it's redundant. I never claim that the way I see it is the only way. I offer my own opinion because I'm compelled to. It's certainly more trouble than it's worth sometimes. I know I'm more critical than most people. I'm a picky guy. People shouldn't get aggressive about it though, it's not personal. And if you don't agree, post why and move on. I do research on these players because it interests me, this is one of my hobbies and I enjoy it. I share my opinions because it may help other people and that makes it worth the effort. There's no personal gain here. DAPreview.com costs money out of my own pocket even. Anyway, yes the Rio has an amazing EQ, more flexible than any other player. I'm still trying to tweak it to something that sounds more like the original CD material, but limited success so far.

What do you use a refernce cd player?

 

[gorman]

Austonia, I'm sorry the discussion at Riovolution has kind of degenerated. It was not what I wished for when I referred your review there.

On the other hand, a couple of posters have provided technical analysis of Karma's sound reproduction.

I will post them here as well, as I'd be interested in a comment from you:

http://www.audiosense.org/results/po...io%20Karma.htm

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelvinz What do you use a refernce cd player?

a mint 1992 Sony D25S on battery power. It's not a $3500 Meridian obviously, but its supposed to be far better than the stuff you can get at Best Buy these days.

 

[strohmie]

I can vouch for the D25S...occasionally a bit on the bright side but certainly better than your run of the mill PCDP.

I'll be curious to see the results of that massive comparison you're doing Austonia...is there a Gigabeat in the mix?

 

[Watchdog]

Hmmm, Austonia your test has inspired me to do a test of my own.

I'm going to invite a couple of local Head-Fi'ers over to my place to listen to an iPod and compare it to my Linn Classik, which is considered to be a fairly good CD player. I think the CD section in it is supposed to be comparable to the Arcam CD9 level, which is pretty good, but again not a $3,500 Meridian.

I would venture to say that it's likely better than what most DAP owners typically listen to.

I'll also arrange a listening comparison of Apple Lossless to 224 AAC and Lame encoded alt preset extreme.

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchdog Hmmm, Austonia your test has inspired me to do a test of my own. I'm going to invite a couple of local Head-Fi'ers over to my place to listen to an iPod and compare it to my Linn Classik, which is considered to be a fairly good CD player. I think the CD section in it is supposed to be comparable to the Arcam CD9 level, which is pretty good, but again not a $3,500 Meridian. I would venture to say that it's likely better than what most DAP owners typically listen to. I'll also arrange a listening comparison of Apple Lossless to 224 AAC and Lame encoded alt preset extreme.

great man! I'd love to hear what you guys find. I'm not sure what to expect considering my experience, but I'm hoping that you and your friends have better results. It would be good news if you guys agreed that the Karma sounds equal or better than iPod, or close to CD. Since I have only one Karma to test with there is always the possibility of some small defect causing an issue on this one. It's a cool little player that I'd like to own if it sounded like my other players. If possible, please consider using at least some tracks ripped with EAC and encoded with LAME to -APX standard. I can set you up with some good demo tracks if you need.

edit:
woops. I thought I read you were going to test a Karma too. anyone in your area have one?

 

[GSTom1]

Hey Austonia,

I was reading some of your exchanges with the boys & gals over at Riovolution.com. Man, quite a sensetive bunch aren't they?!? Perhaps they can't handle any negative comments regarding their precious player?

I have to admit, of all the DAP forums I've been too (Nomadness, Misticriver, DellDJ, Ipodlounge, etc.) the people at Riovolution are the most insecure bunch I have read. Mention anything bad about the Karma and everyone goes into panic mode. When the Karma is not mentioned in a major review of DAPs, people over there cry foul.

I think your review of the Karma was fair and unbiased. You came to the conclusion based on your own set of ears and your experience with 20 or so other DAPs that the Karma does not sound as good as other compariable players. You state that these are your opinions and that people can run their own test and judge for themselves. To each their own. What more is there to say?

Of course, everyone over at Riovolution think you have a bias against Rio players and that your review is some kind of conspiracy to downgrade the Karma. Pleeeaaaassssseeeeee...