Sound quality problem when playing Vinyl through Audacity.

[Scrivs]

So I recently bought myself a turntable so that I could also play vinyl-only releases. The turntable that I bought: http://www.musicstore.com/nl_NL/NLG/-/art-DJE0001829-000
I'm not going to use it for DJ'ing so I only needed one, therefore I didn't need a mixer either but because I still needed some sort of amplifier I bought this: http://www.rjshop.nl/DAP-SC-15-Stage-Cube/nl/product/11813/.
 
So what I did is I connected the turntable to the amplifier, the amplifier to my PC's soundcard, then I got my DAC connected to the soundcard -> my Subwoofer to my DAC -> Studio Monitors connected to the output of my Subwoofer.
(Further details about my setup are in my signature.)
 
It works this way, I can play my vinyl, but I do have a very annoying issue regarding the sound quality of the music that's coming out of my Monitors...
 
The thing is that when there is alot of bass in the tunes, the sound coming from my monitors is extremely distorted...
When there is no bass, i.e. during intro's, the sound is perfect, but when the bass comes, pretty much all I hear is cracking noises...
I don't realy know how to explain it exactly, but I can best describe it as if the 'bass-signal' that my woofer has to play, is also going to my monitors, which can't handle that much bass at all. It kind of gives the same effect as when you are playing bass-heavy songs through cheap earphones, the bassline is very distorted and all you hear is cracking noises.
With some songs I don't even hear the mid and high tones when there is a lot of bass, it's that bad.
The bass coming from my subwoofer sounds great though, nothing wrong with that. It just sounds like the same amount of bass is trying to push itself through my monitors aswell, which just doesn't work.
 
I'm playing the audio signal from my turntable through Audacity on my PC, so maybe I have to change some things in the settings of Audacity itself? I don't know.
I honestly have no idea why this happens realy... I was quite surprised when I first heared it, because when playing mp3's I don't have any problems at all.
 
I realy hope someone could tell what causes this, because I personally have no idea and the turntable and vinyls wasn't cheap
 
Thanks in advance.
 
PS. If you'd need any other information about my setup, other devices, etc. Feel free to ask ofcourse.
 
- Scrivs
 
 
EDIT: I just compared a 320 kbps vinyl rip with one of my own vinyls (same song), I played the tune with only my subwoofer on (both monitors were switched off), and I noticed great difference in the volume of the bass itself.
There was A LOT more bass coming from the vinyl than from the mp3 file, now I know ofcourse that the quality of the tune on vinyl is higher (WAV I assume), but I'm not quite sure if that difference in quality also causes a bassline to be much louder... (I could be wrong though). So I was thinking maybe the bass or the entire signal is being amped too much in Audacity or maybe even the amp itself? And that therefore the signal going to my monitors also has an amped lower end which is too strong for my monitors and causes the sound to crack?
Like I said, I'm not sure about this, I could be completely wrong, but I never realy noticed such a difference before so it kind of surprised me.
Come to think of it, could it be possible that the amp is amplifying the signal so much that my monitors can't handle it? That the amp is too strong for my monitors? That would suck real bad...

 

[ekliptiko]

Why are you tuning an analogue sound into digital and right back to analogue just for playback? after all, isnt your source here the turntable? not the computer? imo, the reason vinyl has the potential to sound best is because the whole system is analogue. 
 
i dont see why there is such distortion this way, but it is unnecessary. try turntable>amp>sub>speakers. i bet you get no distortion? if you insist on having the computer in the chain, maybe the amplifier should go after the dac? that way, the computer is dealing with a lower signal, and it is only amped at the final step.

 

[Scrivs]

Hmm never realy thought of that to be honest... Sounds logical.
The reason why I connected the amp to my computer was because I was told that I needed some sort of Software (like Audacity) to play the music. But I guess the one who told me that was wrong then...
 
Thanks alot for your input though, Ill try that out and see if it works I'll let you know.
 
- Scrivs

 

[Scrivs]

I tried to do what you told me, Ekliptiko, but unfortunately it didn't work out in my situation for a couple of reasons.
 
First, I wasn't able to connect the amp directly to my sub because the sub only has 1 RCA input, which is used by my DAC right now. I did try it out though, but then I realised that I didn't have anything to controll the volume with because I don't use a mixer (another reason why I needed my computer to be in the chain).
 
I also tried to put the amp after the DAC, in this case: turntable directly into my soundcard -> DAC -> Amp -> Sub -> Monitors. I don't know why this didn't work, but as soon as I turned my monitors and sub on I heard a buzzing sound and when I turned my DAC on I heard a loud pop so I quickly switched everything back off again.
 
Also, the RCA cables from my turntable are built in, so can't do anything with that, and it also has a ground / earth cable atached to it which has to be connected directly to the Amps earth / ground screw on the back. So there always has to be a direct connection between the turntable and the Amp.
 
I realise now that it's quite weird what I had to do with tuning to signal from analogue to digital to analogue and all, but it seems to be the only way to do it I guess...
 
Does anyone else perhaps have any ideas? I realy hope that there is something I can do to fix this...

 

[Roseval]

Double RIAA
 
You can’t have a normal bass on vinyl, it doesn’t fit in the groove.
Therefore the bass is weakened.
To compensate at playback the bass is boosted by the phono amp
This is called RIAA correction.
The ‘amp’ you bought is a phone stage.
The instruction of the turntable say you connect it to a mixer.
 
My guess: the turntable comes with a phonostage bring the signal to line level including RIAA correction.
You connect it to the amp, applying RIAA again so a double bass-boost.
 
As your DAC has volume control, connect the TT straight to the line-in of the DAC
Alternatively: connect the TT straight to the line-in of your sound card.
Record and store to HD.
Playback from HD
In both cases you should have a normal bass if my guesswork is correct.

 

[Scrivs]

Thanks for that, Roseval.
 
So basically, what your saying is, I don't even need the amp? 

Going to try that out then haha... Fingers crossed!
 
Also, should I do anything with the ground / earth connector? (dont know what it's called in English) It should be connected to the amp or a mixer, but I udnerstood that it causes alot of buzz when not connected?

 

[Scrivs]

I did what you said, Roseval. I connected the turntable directly to the line in of my soundcard (with no amp in between).
 
I did have sound, but unfortunately it was still distorted... this time there was barely any bass coming out of my woofer and again the bassline caused the rest of the sound coming from my monitors to crack.
The volume itself was also very low, I had to turn the volume on my DAC all the way up and it still wasn't loud enough to casually listen to...
 
Also tried to connect the turntable directly to the line in of my DAC but I didn't have any sound at all that way, Audacity wasn't able to record any signal either.
 
Now I realy have no idea what to do next or what causes the distortion of the bass. Again, anything else but bass sounds just fine, nothing wrong with that.
 
 
Update: I just realised that I still had a SM Pro iNano Volume Controller from a while back, so I connected the turntable to the Line In of the iNano (with the amp in between) so that I had control over the volume, then connected the iNano the the Line In of my subwoofer and played a record... still distortion.
Even without my PC and DAC in the chain.
So what is causing the distortion? I have absolutely no idea.

 

[Scrivs]

Anyone?
Could it perhaps be something simple, like a faulty needle or cable or something?
 
Also, my DAC is connected to my soundcard through S/PDIF, not Line 1/2, could that be it? That Vinyl and S/PDIF don't go well with eachother?
Again, I have no idea what's causing it, I'm just guessing here...
 
Any further help is very much appreciated.

 

[sterling1]

Here's how I do it. TT RCA out to phono input of amp.  Amp RCA out to ADC. ADC  to USB port on PC. This signal is recorded using Roxio's Easy LP to MP3 software. For playback, USB port from PC to DAC. DAC to RCA input of control amp using it's DSP to direct bass to sub. Alternatively, for playback, USB port from PC to USB to optical Toslink interface. Toslink to amp optical input.
 
No distortion, and bass management through amps' DSP works fine.
 
My DAC/ADC/ USB to optical S/PDIF, etc. interface duties are all handled with a Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD external sound  card.

 

[jiiteepee]

If it's a DJ -turntable in question then, check, if the cartridge/needle is made for DJ use (they don't like Hi-Fi sound).
 
Also, if the Reloop does not have in-build RIAA stage then you can easily check if the phono pre-amp (DAP..) is OK by using software based RIAA EQ correction (not that EQ preset in Audacity but true filters). When using software RIAA you need to connect the turntable directly into soundcard (rather through some flat pre-amp).
 
http://jiiteepee.fortunecity.com/riaafilter/index.html
http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=results&st=f&q=RIAA
 
EDIT: If that task sounds too complicated then, just host a 30-60 second recording (wav) done w/o RIAA stage so I can check this for you.
 
jiiteepee

 

[Scrivs]

Thanks for the help, Jiiteepee and Sterling! I really appreciate it and it sounds like you know what you are talking about.
 
Though I have a couple of questions because I don't entirely understand certain things.
 
- Sterling, could you tell me what exactly that 'ADC' is that you are talking about? Never heard of that before...
 
- How exactly do I know if the cartridge is made specificly for DJ use? I know that it's the Ortofon OM GT Cartridge, which is the stock one that came with the TT, but I can't find anything about if it's good for DJ'ing or not on the internet. Maybe anyone of you is familiar with this type of cartridge?
 
- Also, I can't find anything in the manual, on the box or on the internet about the TT having an in-built RIAA pre-amp, so I assume it doesn't then?
 
- The description of the amp, however, says: "Phono RIAA Equalized Pre-Amp. Is designed to amplify an RIAA equalized phono signal to a Hi-Fi level signal and works well with magnetic pick-ups."
Again, I don't quite get what that means and I also wasn't able to find any further information about it on the internet apart from that. No reviews or tests or anything, just webshops that sell it. Guess it isn't really that popular then...
 
I'm sorry, but could somebody please explain to me what it is exactly that I'm doing wrong here, and if I'm working with the right equipment? I'm completely new to this type of stuff and the fact that my English isn't perfect either doesn't really help I'm afraid.
This is the first time I hear about RIAA and I don't quite get what it is, or what it does exactly...
 
- It is ofcourse not a problem to upload a recorded WAV clip of what it sounds like right now, but Riiteepee, you say that it should be done without RIAA stage... I assume that by that you mean without the amp in between?
 
I also see that those 2 links you posted hold alot of helpfull information, but because I have absolutely no clue of what is causing the problem, I don't really know what I should look for exactly on those websites :S
 
Finally, to make it a bit easier to understand for you, I'll describe how everything is connected right now:
 
Tuntable RCA OUT to Phono IN of the Amp --> Amp RCA OUT to RCA Line IN of M-Audio 2496 Internal Soundcard --> S/PDIF OUT to S/PDIF In of DAC (Digital In) --> RCA Line OUT to RCA Line IN of Subwoofer --> Balanced XLR OUT to Line IN of Monitors.
(It is also possible to connect the DAC to my Soundcard using RCA instead of S/PDIF btw)
 
Again my apologies for asking so many questions, but I was told to do it this way and so I expected it to work... Therefore I was quite surprised when I realised that it actualy didn't.
 
Thanks in advance. I hope that you are willing and able to give me any further information on this. I really appreciate all the help that I got so far. Thanks.

 

[jiiteepee]

Quote:

Thanks for the help, Jiiteepee and Sterling! I really appreciate it and it sounds like you know what you are talking about.
 
Though I have a couple of questions because I don't entirely understand certain things.
 
- Sterling, could you tell me what exactly that 'ADC' is that you are talking about? Never heard of that before...
 
- How exactly do I know if the cartridge is made specificly for DJ use? I know that it's the Ortofon OM GT Cartridge, which is the stock one that came with the TT, but I can't find anything about if it's good for DJ'ing or not on the internet. Maybe anyone of you is familiar with this type of cartridge?
 
- Also, I can't find anything in the manual, on the box or on the internet about the TT having an in-built RIAA pre-amp, so I assume it doesn't then?
 
- The description of the amp, however, says: "Phono RIAA Equalized Pre-Amp. Is designed to amplify an RIAA equalized phono signal to a Hi-Fi level signal and works well with magnetic pick-ups."
Again, I don't quite get what that means and I also wasn't able to find any further information about it on the internet apart from that. No reviews or tests or anything, just webshops that sell it. Guess it isn't really that popular then...
 
I'm sorry, but could somebody please explain to me what it is exactly that I'm doing wrong here, and if I'm working with the right equipment? I'm completely new to this type of stuff and the fact that my English isn't perfect either doesn't really help I'm afraid.
This is the first time I hear about RIAA and I don't quite get what it is, or what it does exactly...
 
- It is ofcourse not a problem to upload a recorded WAV clip of what it sounds like right now, but Riiteepee, you say that it should be done without RIAA stage... I assume that by that you mean without the amp in between?
 
I also see that those 2 links you posted hold alot of helpfull information, but because I have absolutely no clue of what is causing the problem, I don't really know what I should look for exactly on those websites :S
 
Finally, to make it a bit easier to understand for you, I'll describe how everything is connected right now:
 
Tuntable RCA OUT to Phono IN of the Amp --> Amp RCA OUT to RCA Line IN of M-Audio 2496 Internal Soundcard --> S/PDIF OUT to S/PDIF In of DAC (Digital In) --> RCA Line OUT to RCA Line IN of Subwoofer --> Balanced XLR OUT to Line IN of Monitors.
(It is also possible to connect the DAC to my Soundcard using RCA instead of S/PDIF btw)
 
Again my apologies for asking so many questions, but I was told to do it this way and so I expected it to work... Therefore I was quite surprised when I realised that it actualy didn't.
 
Thanks in advance. I hope that you are willing and able to give me any further information on this. I really appreciate all the help that I got so far. Thanks.

ADC = Analog to Digital converter (in your sound card).
 
IIRC, they mentioned on Reloop site/documentation that this turntable/cartridge is for DJing. Being a DJ cartridge, it's quite common that the output voltage is high (IIRC it was mentioned somewhere being 7.5mV) and general sound is bassy.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
 
Yes, record the sample without phono pre-amp in chain.
 
Behind those links I gave, you can download standalone software / VST plug-in to make RIAA EQ in software.
Because the phono pre-amp you have might be somehow broken (distortion, bassy sounding), you might want to check that out. It's easy way to do it by comparing the result of software based and hardware based RIAA EQ (recordings). For VST plug-in in Audacity you need to install addon for that (check the Audacity product pages).
 
Your connection path looks OK to me. Is the sound better if you listen directly through sound card analog outputs?
 
jiiteepee

 

[Scrivs]

Quote:

ADC = Analog to Digital converter (in your sound card).
 
IIRC, they mentioned on Reloop site/documentation that this turntable/cartridge is for DJing. Being a DJ cartridge, it's quite common that the output voltage is high (IIRC it was mentioned somewhere being 7.5mV) and general sound is bassy.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
 
Yes, record the sample without phono pre-amp in chain.
 
Behind those links I gave, you can download standalone software / VST plug-in to make RIAA EQ in software.
Because the phono pre-amp you have might be somehow broken (distortion, bassy sounding), you might want to check that out. It's easy way to do it by comparing the result of software based and hardware based RIAA EQ (recordings). For VST plug-in in Audacity you need to install addon for that (check the Audacity product pages).
 
Your connection path looks OK to me. Is the sound better if you listen directly through sound card analog outputs?
 
jiiteepee

Hmm I see...
Thanks again.
 
The cartridge that came with the TT is indeed 7,5mV, so is that bad for casual record listening? If so, what would you recommend me to get instead?
 
I also made the 2 recordings, one with the amp and one without it (I thought you might wanted to compare the difference between the two?) I have to point at though that, as I said in a previous post, the volume of the signal without the amp was quite a bit lower than the one with amp.
You can download them here:
 
Clip With Amp:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wj5oaga1wwjm4hd
 
Clip Without Amp:
http://www.mediafire.com/?j09wpkgs6f2iaby
 
As you can hear in the beginning of the clip without the amp, everything sounds quite alright, untill the bass kicks in.
 
I hope they are of any help to you.
 
[Edit:] I don't know why, but I was just listening to both samples in Foobar and noticed that the volume was pretty much the same for both, while in Audacity the sample without the amp had a much lower volume than the one with amp when I played them back. Also, the spectogram (if that's the right term?) of the signal that got recorded when the amp wasn't connected was pretty much a straight thin line (as if it wasn't recording anything), while the one for the recording with the amp was as it's supposed to be.
Don't know if this has anything to do with the problem, just don't turn your volume all the way up as I said above That wouldn't be pleasant.
 
I'll also try and see if it sounds better through the soundcard's analog outputs tomorrow, but I don't really have the time for that right now (it's already past midnight here).
I'm not really sure if that would make a difference though, considering the fact that I had the same distortion when my PC and DAC weren't even in the chain at all (TT with Amp connected directly into the subwoofer). Which is why I'm thinking the distortion is caused by the amp and not only by my PC, don't you think so as well?
 
And I'll have a look at those software and plugins too, though I still find it all a bit hard to understand haha.
But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that I should make a recording of how it currently sounds (with the pre-amp) and a recording of what I get when I use one of those plugins / software that replaces the pre-amp with a digital one, and then compare the two, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Thanks again for the help. It's very appreciated.

 

[ekliptiko]

i still dont see why the computer has anything to do with playing a vinyl...

 

[jiiteepee]

 
Quote:

I also made the 2 recordings, one with the amp and one without it (I thought you might wanted to compare the difference between the two?) I have to point at though that, as I said in a previous post, the volume of the signal without the amp was quite a bit lower than the one with amp.
You can download them here:
 
Clip With Amp:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wj5oaga1wwjm4hd
 
Clip Without Amp:
http://www.mediafire.com/?j09wpkgs6f2iaby
 
As you can hear in the beginning of the clip without the amp, everything sounds quite alright, untill the bass kicks in.

 
 
Sample, recorded with phono pre-amp in chain, is clipping badly (too high recording level ... needed to be normalized -20dB to get the level around 0dB) ... but, as the distortion is present even in other sample, I think it's either the high output voltage from cartridge or your recording level settings in PC end that makes sound distorded.
 
What needle weight are you using (IIRC, recommended weight is between 3g and 5g)?
 
Is it possible for you to try another cartridge?
If you decide to get new Hi-Fi cartridge, Ortofon has nice ones even in low budged series. Other brands that comes into mind are Grado, Shure, Goldring.
 
Here's the clip you recorded without RIAA EQ ... I added the RIAA EQ in software and normalized to -1dB. Doesn't it sound bad aswell?
 
http://www.mediafire.com/?219xai48xc47o65
 
 
jiiteepee