[sardinemaster]

Hello!
I am going to be investing in a new computer soon (black Friday/cyber Monday sales) and I want to finally get a good audio setup going.
I currently am using the HD600.
I'd like a sound card and amp combo that does justice to my headphones. I've been using them on my laptop for about a year and I'm aware I wasn't experiencing my headphones' sound at full capacity - I'd like to change that.
I use my computer for gaming and music mainly. Whatever combo you suggest I'd like for it to be very good for both those two things, with priority to the music. I'm also going to be getting a pretty high end computer and would appreciate that whatever you choose it would also be in the high end.
Is a 250€ budged realistic? Hopefully so.
I would also like to get some basic speakers (just 2, no need for a sub-woofer). These speakers are not for serious listening, just when I don't want to put my headphones on and want to listen to podcast or something.

Any help you may provide is greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

SoundBlasterX AE-5 has low output impedance and a relatively powerful amp, no need for an amp as long as you use a headphone that has 96dB or higher sensitivity.

You can use the Philips SHP9500S for now, and then get something like the Sennheiser HD660S or HiFiMan HE400S in the future.

Use any change on speakers like the SonicGear Quatro II (got mine at a local store for $10). It's a lot better than other basic computer speakers. I just EQ some of the treble but for the most part proper toe in angle is enough to reduce glare. My home office desk has shelves and if I put these there they act like bass traps boosting the low end.

 

[cossix]

If you don't mind the unit sitting on your desk, the Schiit Modi 2/Magni 3 stack is one of the best deals you can find under $200. It'll play nicely with the 600

 

[sardinemaster]

SoundBlasterX AE-5 has low output impedance and a relatively powerful amp, no need for an amp as long as you use a headphone that has 96dB or higher sensitivity.

You can use the Philips SHP9500S for now, and then get something like the Sennheiser HD660S or HiFiMan HE400S in the future.

Use any change on speakers like the SonicGear Quatro II (got mine at a local store for $10). It's a lot better than other basic computer speakers. I just EQ some of the treble but for the most part proper toe in angle is enough to reduce glare. My home office desk has shelves and if I put these there they act like bass traps boosting the low end.

My current HD 600 have a sensitivity of 102dB, so they should do fine for the sound card, right? And as you said no need for the amp. I might eventually upgrade my headphones but for now they are working perfectly!
Regarding the headphones I will look into those, good and cheap is what I'm looking for!

Thanks for your help.

 

[sardinemaster]

If you don't mind the unit sitting on your desk, the Schiit Modi 2/Magni 3 stack is one of the best deals you can find under $200. It'll play nicely with the 600

Sitting on the table is exactly where I want it to be!
That is only the amp, right? Any particular sound card to go with it?

Thanks!

 

[cossix]

Sitting on the table is exactly where I want it to be!
That is only the amp, right? Any particular sound card to go with it?

Thanks!

Magni 3 is the amp, Modi 2 is the DAC

 

[ProtegeManiac]

My current HD 600 have a sensitivity of 102dB, so they should do fine for the sound card, right? And as you said no need for the amp. I might eventually upgrade my headphones but for now they are working perfectly!

That's actually the efficiency, which is 102dB/1volt. Sensitiivty is 97dB/1mW. Still pretty high as long as the soundcard doesn't drastically drop voltage and below what it needs. You can do a lot with 2volts as long as it has low distortion and noise.

 

[sardinemaster]

Magni 3 is the amp, Modi 2 is the DAC

Ah ok, thanks! So there is no need for a dedicated sound card, the on board audio is good enough? Or did you not recommend any because you agree with ProtegeManiac's recommendation.
This will be my motherboard btw: Asus - ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (WI-FI AC) ATX LGA1151 Motherboard

Thanks for all your help!

EDIT: After waking up I don't know why I asked you for soundcard recommendation when basically that's what the DAC/AMP combo does. Now to an actual decent question:
Although pricier, would it be worth spending a bit more and getting the Audio GD NFB-11? I've been seeing/hearing very good things about it. Any experience?

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention the DAC/AMP combo doesn't need to be portable.

 

[sardinemaster]

That's actually the efficiency, which is 102dB/1volt. Sensitiivty is 97dB/1mW. Still pretty high as long as the soundcard doesn't drastically drop voltage and below what it needs. You can do a lot with 2volts as long as it has low distortion and noise.

Oh my bad! That's what I get for glancing through the documentation.
I doubt the soundcard will drop voltage, my power supply will largely suffice for my whole rig (hopefully that's what you meant).
Regarding the 2 volts and the distortion/noise is there any specific way to avoid this or is it all due to steady voltage? Just want to make sure I have all the prerequisites to make sure the soundcard will run smoothly.
I've been seeing/hearing some good things about the Audio GD NFB-11. Any experiences on it? It's definitely pricier, but maybe worth going for it and not for the sound card?

Thanks!

EDIT: Forgot to mention the DAC/AMP combo doesn't need to be portable.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

EDIT: After waking up I don't know why I asked you for soundcard recommendation when basically that's what the DAC/AMP combo does.

Not completely...a soundcard may have a DAC chip/circuit and a headphone amplifier stage, but it also has a DSP (except for that Onkyo that was based on the circuit of one of their CDPs) for signal processing. This is why some external soundcards are referred to as that and not classified as DAC-HPamps, like the SoundBlaster X7.

I doubt the soundcard will drop voltage, my power supply will largely suffice for my whole rig (hopefully that's what you meant).
Regarding the 2 volts and the distortion/noise is there any specific way to avoid this or is it all due to steady voltage? Just want to make sure I have all the prerequisites to make sure the soundcard will run smoothly.

I typed an error there - it's not voltage that "drops," but power output in watts (or fraction of it). Watts or mW barring OTL tube amp circuits will drop as impedance rises (OTLs have their peak output at ~300ohms), and depending on voltage delivery of the circuit, can severely drop. Look at the Asgard2 vs the Lyr2 - at 32ohms the latter has more than 500% of the Asgard's output, but at 300ohms, it has only about 30% more. Not that it's really a problem considering the output of the Asgard can take most 300ohm headphones way past hearing damage levels with enough power left for dynamic peaks on properly recorded music, just that if even good amps can drop in output by that much, then in some cases what produces say 300mW at 32ohms could be spitting out as little as 15mW at 300ohms, and in some cases, already has distortion and noise.

That said, it's not really a big problem for the SoundBlaster X. I wouldn't think it can even match the Asgard2 but I wouldn't worry too much about it if you can buy the AE-5 now and any other DAC and HPamp later.

I've been seeing/hearing some good things about the Audio GD NFB-11. Any experiences on it? It's definitely pricier, but maybe worth going for it and not for the sound card?

It depends on what you need. If you need DSP for virtual surround then get the soundcard. Before the SBX AE-5 the problems with internal cards was high output impedance and limited power output, but not with that new card.

However I mentioned that back when I had no idea what your motherboard was, and I think yours already has a good DSP chip. Might as well save that slot for PCI-E storage.

 

[sardinemaster]

I'm glad you corrected me - you cleared up some wrong ideas I have had for a while now.

Regarding surround sound and the soundstage in general, the HD600s have been criticized for having a narrower soundstage than their predecessor (HD598) and their brother (HD650). I'd like to try and change that, as much as it realistically can be changed.
So if I understood your explanation correctly, the soundcard will most likely help in the soundstage department (surround sound and all) and the Audio GD NFB-11 AMP/DAC combo will help drive my HD 600 in the best possible manner.

While I know that every listener has his preferences, I, for now, am still quite the newbie. As I stated in my first post, I am building a PC from scratch and all parts are high end (i7 8700k 3.7ghz, gtx 1080ti 11gb etc). I'd like the audio aspect of the build to reflect the rest of it.

I previously mentioned 250€, but I am willing to double it up to 500€. Obviously, after more reviewing I started seeing the prices and getting a feel for what is a realistic price for a pretty high end product. Obviously we're not talking studio level quality, but very good for personal use.
Taking into account my main uses are, as previously stated, gaming and music what would your recommendation be? So with the 500€ budget in mind what would be your choice? While that is my budget I'm also interested in price:quality ratio, so I don't think paying double for something that is 10% (objective measurement in a case where there is no objective metric, I know but usually you can get a pretty good feel) is worth it.
Oh and forget the speakers that I mentioned in my post, as you mentioned those cost next to nothing nowadays.

Thank again for all your help.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Regarding surround sound and the soundstage in general, the HD600s have been criticized for having a narrower soundstage than their predecessor (HD598) and their brother (HD650). I'd like to try and change that, as much as it realistically can be changed.

The HD598 is newer than the HD600. The HD5xx line is a lower tier than the HD6xx line. The HD580 and more specifically the HD580J is the HD600's predecessor, with the HD580J having basically identical parts as the HD600 save for the driver; driver screen and driver housing are different and the latter isn't robust enough when the headphone is cranked up. That's kind of like how ATi-AMD used to have HDxxxx and NVidia had GTXxxx, now they're at Rx xxx and GTX xxxx respectively. Or how Nikon replaced the D90 with the D7000 because the D100 was an older higher tier model that, at the time the D7000 came out, was on the D300S.

Soundstage size isn't going to improve on the HD600 apart from the reverb added on surround simulation software though. Other tweaks are more for making the positioning more precise within that stage, and are more audible in stereo than on simulated surround where really the DSP is what will make the most difference on each headphone.

So if I understood your explanation correctly, the soundcard will most likely help in the soundstage department (surround sound and all) and the Audio GD NFB-11 AMP/DAC combo will help drive my HD 600 in the best possible manner.

NFB-11 will help tonality and give you lower distortion and noise even at higher volume. It can help imaging but again this is more audible for stereo and not so much virtual surround if you use both the soundcard and the NFB-11. That's one way to go though - any cheap soundcard or your motherboard as long as its DSP has virtual surround can send out the modified signal via SPDIF output to the NFB-11.

While I know that every listener has his preferences, I, for now, am still quite the newbie. As I stated in my first post, I am building a PC from scratch and all parts are high end (i7 8700k 3.7ghz, gtx 1080ti 11gb etc). I'd like the audio aspect of the build to reflect the rest of it.

Just bear in mind that the improvements aren't going to be as clear to you as seeing higher average and minimum FPS when you upgrade the PC or its components.

I previously mentioned 250€, but I am willing to double it up to 500€. Obviously, after more reviewing I started seeing the prices and getting a feel for what is a realistic price for a pretty high end product. Obviously we're not talking studio level quality, but very good for personal use.

Many home audio products actually beat studio equipment as they have more power, less distortion and noise even with higher output on the amplifier stage, and a low output impedance on the headphone output. If anything there's going to be slightly more distortion on the preamp stage/preamp output vs studio gear, but for the most part studio gear is really more for what the playback gear do not have: the inputs for recording.

Taking into account my main uses are, as previously stated, gaming and music what would your recommendation be? So with the 500€ budget in mind what would be your choice? While that is my budget I'm also interested in price:quality ratio, so I don't think paying double for something that is 10% (objective measurement in a case where there is no objective metric, I know but usually you can get a pretty good feel) is worth it.

NFB-11 and connect them to your motherboard via optical SPDIF. Just double check and make sure your motherboard's audio DSP has virtual surround. I can't guarantee how audible the differences will be to you but basically this gets you virtual surround and the hardware to drive the HD600 and nearly all other headphone out there with practically inaudible distortion.

Maybe use the change to get a cheaper headphone with wider soundstage even if you have to compromise on tonal balance, and then use it mostly for gaming. I think there are Audio Technicas at that price point - like the ATH-AD500.

 

[sardinemaster]

The HD598 is newer than the HD600. The HD5xx line is a lower tier than the HD6xx line. The HD580 and more specifically the HD580J is the HD600's predecessor, with the HD580J having basically identical parts as the HD600 save for the driver; driver screen and driver housing are different and the latter isn't robust enough when the headphone is cranked up. That's kind of like how ATi-AMD used to have HDxxxx and NVidia had GTXxxx, now they're at Rx xxx and GTX xxxx respectively. Or how Nikon replaced the D90 with the D7000 because the D100 was an older higher tier model that, at the time the D7000 came out, was on the D300S.

Soundstage size isn't going to improve on the HD600 apart from the reverb added on surround simulation software though. Other tweaks are more for making the positioning more precise within that stage, and are more audible in stereo than on simulated surround where really the DSP is what will make the most difference on each headphone.

Wow, had no idea, always thought the 598 was older than the 600.

Many home audio products actually beat studio equipment as they have more power, less distortion and noise even with higher output on the amplifier stage, and a low output impedance on the headphone output. If anything there's going to be slightly more distortion on the preamp stage/preamp output vs studio gear, but for the most part studio gear is really more for what the playback gear do not have: the inputs for recording.

That's very interesting, good to know!

Just double check and make sure your motherboard's audio DSP has virtual surround.

I think it does, but if you could just confirm : https://www.asus.com/microsite/mb/ROG-supremefx-gaming-audio/?open=a2,b1,c2,c3,c4,c5,c6,c7#supremefx These should be the specifications for the Asus - ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (WI-FI AC) ATX LGA1151 Motherboard.

Again thanks for all your help!

 

[PurpleAngel]

Ah ok, thanks! So there is no need for a dedicated sound card, the on board audio is good enough? Or did you not recommend any because you agree with ProtegeManiac's recommendation.
This will be my motherboard btw: Asus - ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (WI-FI AC) ATX LGA1151 Motherboard

Thanks for all your help!

EDIT: After waking up I don't know why I asked you for soundcard recommendation when basically that's what the DAC/AMP combo does. Now to an actual decent question:
Although pricier, would it be worth spending a bit more and getting the Audio GD NFB-11? I've been seeing/hearing very good things about it. Any experience?

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention the DAC/AMP combo doesn't need to be portable.

I'm on my third DAC/amp, from Audio-GD, just got the NFB-11.28 a few weeks back.
(was using the NFB-15)
So far I'm liking the NFB-11.28 and the NFB-11.28's line-output (RCA) is connected to my tube head amp (336SE).
So I can switch (tube or solid state), depending on mood.

 

[sardinemaster]

I'm on my third DAC/amp, from Audio-GD, just got the NFB-11.28 a few weeks back.
(was using the NFB-15)
So far I'm liking the NFB-11.28 and the NFB-11.28's line-output (RCA) is connected to my tube head amp (336SE).
So I can switch (tube or solid state), depending on mood.

Sounds nice! Don't think I'll be going for the tube though. Tube makes it sound warmer right?