[Seirrah]

Just get some 5.1 Headphones for gaming

I have Zalman 5.1 headphones and for gamingthey're great.

 

[MikoLayer]

my point was not that speakers provide better positioning ability (now that is a whole new can of worms, I dont have enough in depth technical knowledge to delve into that); rather, I pointed out for an "average joe" or a casual gamer, for whom creative audigy line is marketed in general, multimedia speakers are most likely the main output device of choice. Well, perhaps "average joe" is not the fitting word here, seeing how one should at least know how to install the card to his or her computer. This is also being inline with the idea of realistic, or down to earth, as not everyone goes to lanparties or plays in tournaments. The real question I asked, which is yet to be answered, is whether the EAX truly shines for headphone HRTF. Last thing I learned about EAX was it was more geared towards multichannel speaker setup than the headphone setup. Kinda makes sense too, since creative is all about mass market (took them long enough to fix the resampling issue). I do remember how it was clearly inferior to A3D way back, and also how it even trailed behind sensaura on certain things for headphone use. Well, I am sure they probably learned a lot from acquiring aureal and improved upon their older generation EAX, but I just dont hear much at all about people using EAX with headphones and preferring it by far to other 3d sound implementation on headphones.

Now that you brought up the topic of "competitive gaming", do most competitive gamers use EAX and swear by it? just curious

I am sure serious gamers could also benefit from their supposedely superior hardware, but they are a minority compared to the mass market just like we audiophiles are. Most people are more worried about the lacking ergonomics of the cheapie headsets (or lack of thumping bass to everything which they seem to adore) than the ability to precisely pinpoint enemy locations in competitive head-to-head games, much the same way they just dont care about interal 48khz resampling and all the nasty side effects of it.

 

[TooNice]

First, I have one point to make about the "details advantage" of the headphones. How much does that really matter in practice? I'd say that games are not the same as music. It is really quite uncommon for programmers to add the type of details in games as you'd find in music. And a good set of MM speaker WILL let you hear the steps that you need to hear. No more than headphones, but I suspect no less either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradH Nobody was arguing that it doesn't make sense for a competitor to practice by mimicing tournament conditions. Obviously it does, it's a true statement, and any competitor would acknowledge this. It's also obvious that it would be unreasonable to setup a seperate room for every competitor to use speakers. But you can't state outright that competitors are only using headphones as a matter of necessity and convenience. Why wouldn't a gamer choose to use an option which provided unparralled sound detail and perfect channel seperation?

Based on the assumption I made earlier, I actually think it makes perfect sense. What is the point of unparralled sound detail and perfect channel separation (I am not saying speakers provide does, but even if it does) it is not going to be applicable when it matters (at the tourney).

And honestly, I think we are thinking way too much into this. Here's my take on this:
- There is no absolutes here. I doubt that ALL top gamers prefer one over the other.
- I also doubt that sound play that much importance in one's performance. There are far more important variables (maps, mood, environment etc.).
- Hence it makes more sense to pick the more practical option (headphones).

Not because it is inherently better, but because it is more versatile for that line of work.

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seirrah Just get some 5.1 Headphones for gaming I have Zalman 5.1 headphones and for gamingthey're great.

They...are...absolutely...horrible. In every way. An x-fi generates better hrtf for stereo than the zalmans with 6 channels..

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikoLayer . The real question I asked, which is yet to be answered, is whether the EAX truly shines for headphone HRTF.

EAX doesn't include headphone hrtf. That job is up to cmss. It does a decent job in games, screws up music though.

 

[BradH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooNice First, I have one point to make about the "details advantage" of the headphones. How much does that really matter in practice? I'd say that games are not the same as music. It is really quite uncommon for programmers to add the type of details in games as you'd find in music. And a good set of MM speaker WILL let you hear the steps that you need to hear. No more than headphones, but I suspect no less either.

Personally I think the opposite. I think hearing every detail is more important in competitive gaming than for listening to music. In a serious duel against a talented opponent, it can be a matter of life or death. (Virtual, of course

) With music you can miss a subtle detail without any real consequence.

But as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, the number of gamers that compete this seriously constitute a small minority, and the majority of people out there could enjoy a nice surround sound speaker setup without having a single complaint.

 

[Razoramus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradH I think hearing every detail is more important in competitive gaming than for listening to music.

what kind of head-fier are you?

 

[BradH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razoramus what kind of head-fier are you?

Haha, well I guess that came out wrong. I certainly appreciate detail in music, and I wouldn't be here otherwise.

But, if someone put a gun to my head and said "You have a choice: either permanently give up headphones for gaming, or permanently give up headphones for music. Take your pick." I'd have to give up the headphones for music.

The reason is that I can enjoy listening to music on a high end speaker system as much as on a high end headphone rig.

But I don't feel the nearly the same way with respect to speakers vs headphones for gaming. I would feel as if I was making a huge sacrifice.

I expect most people on this site would probably choose the opposite without even a moment of hesitation.

 

[]|[ GorE]

The problem with the Audigys is the total lack of decoupling and bypass caps for ANY IC on the board,including the DAC.Take a look at the Cirrus Logic DAC datasheets and the recommended circuit implementation.Then take a look at the creative boards and the quality of caps used.Very poor.

Now i am a person who doesnt believe in branded caps and resistors.But its the type of electrolytics that creative use is bad.

 

[smooth]

As interesting as the technical aspects of this discussion have been, I didn't notice anyone make mention of the fact that many gamers need a microphone.

While I may enjoy what's coming out of my speakers, my team-mates don't so they usually argue with me until I put my headset on.

unless you've got an expensive noise-canceling microphone, if you game with other players and want to speak with them, you're going to need to use a headset regardless of whether you prefer the quality of speakers over earphones.

 

[TooNice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradH Personally I think the opposite. I think hearing every detail is more important in competitive gaming than for listening to music. In a serious duel against a talented opponent, it can be a matter of life or death.

I don't believe all details are important in competitive gaming. You want to know when someone has walked behind the door in front of you, but you do not need, and perhaps would rather not hear the sound of a faint drop of water a few corridors down (basically, any subtle ambient sound), which has nothing to do with the positioning of your opponent.

In some sense, it is similar to the details setting of the game. You want to see enough so that you can aim at their head far away, but you don't want so much that you see details that distracts you, or end up "filtered" by your brain.

My take though, is that no games will make you miss the "crucial" sound with a good set of multimedia speakers. In games that provides feedback of when a player picks up a power up, or is creeping closer, moving further away etc. the sound provided by the speakers is usually good enough in my experience... And again, I find my choice of using headphones being more practical than anything.

smooth actually made a good point, that I totally forgot (I don't have an headset, but use headphone+separate microphone combo when I am playing team games).

 

[Sycraft]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth unless you've got an expensive noise-canceling microphone, if you game with other players and want to speak with them, you're going to need to use a headset regardless of whether you prefer the quality of speakers over earphones.

Not so much, just get a normal cardioid or hypercardiod mic like they use on stage, an SM58 is a good example, put it near your mouth and keep the gain low. The mic will inherantly not pick much up from behind it, where you get the most sound (you get the most noise from your front speakers, and it'll be pointing away form those), as it will in front of it.

I have just such a setup. I've got four speakers that are massive by PC standards (B&W 604S3s in front, 601S2s in back) that I use for basically everything on my PC, including gaming. I then have an SM58 on an articulated arm on my desk which I keep right next to my mouth. I've tested it out and nobody can hear any of my sound, including music I listen to. I suppose I could in theory turn it up to the point htat they could, but I'd be killing my ears in doing so.

The only downside is that if I get more than about 3 inches away from the mic, nobody can understand what I'm saying anymore because I'm too quiet. I'm debating replacing the SM58 with a good headworn mic but they are rather expensive. They work well though, they are designed for people like drummers in bands so they can play and sing/talk at the same time.

At any rate, these days there's really something to be said for surround gaming setups as the virtulization is getting real good. In World of Warcraft, I've tracked things down using sound. There was a player sneaking around, killing guards in houses and then vanishing. Warcraft's sound is good enough that I could tell the direction the fighting was happening in, and that it was occluded by a wall. A bit of wandering and listening revealed a rouge fighting a guard in a house.

I don't find that it's that good on headphones, though as of yet I've never tested my X-Fi with games and headphones.

 

[Behemot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by androgeny Since I started using the Beyers, I've had no problems pinpointing any sounds around me in UT2004. For some reason, I always seemed to have trouble placing sounds with the surround speakers (maybe because they suck?). The awareness the Beyers have given me allows me to stalk targets and visualize their movements better than I've ever been able to, which makes the game a lot more entertaining to me.

I guess the right question to ask would be: how is the sound in games "mixed". Is it "mixed" using headphones or speakers?
My guess is that it is used with headphones and that's why it sounds better to so many people. That is a GUESS. If anyone here at HF as engaged into laying game soundtrack and can shed some light onto subject please do so.
Surely speakers are better for music reproduction as music is mixed in studio using proper monitor speakers, usually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by androgeny Is there a way to set up profiles in the Creative software so I don't have to have the stupid console open all the time? (That's my only real gripe with the X-Fi, other than cost)

If it is CMSS and EAX that you use/do not use for gaming/music listening respectively then just keep the settings for gaming saved in the gaming mode and the other ones under the entertainment mode. The really well-thought- thru thing about X-Fi is that is saves settings separately for each mode.
Once I pick gaming mode my headphone setting, EQ setting, CMSS-3D setting and Crystallizer settings are all ticked. When I switch into the other mode, all these settings are off (all but EQ - set differently for speakers) and I have my 5.1 speakers selected automatically. Nice.

 

[androgeny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot If it is CMSS and EAX that you use/do not use for gaming/music listening respectively then just keep the settings for gaming saved in the gaming mode and the other ones under the entertainment mode. The really well-thought- thru thing about X-Fi is that is saves settings separately for each mode. Once I pick gaming mode my headphone setting, EQ setting, CMSS-3D setting and Crystallizer settings are all ticked. When I switch into the other mode, all these settings are off (all but EQ - set differently for speakers) and I have my 5.1 speakers selected automatically. Nice.

Yeah, I'm currently doing that by switching between modes, but I'm a lazy computer user. I don't want to click those 3-4 times to actually change the mode when I'm going into a game. I guess my original inquiry should have been "is there a way to auto-switch between modes (entertainment/gaming) based on what program you're running (similar to game-specific video card settings)?"

In regards to detail and its use in gaming - you really don't know what sorts of sounds are going to get dropped out. Maybe you'll hear those ambient sounds on a cheap pair of headphones, but not the footsteps of the guy behind you. In UT2004 at least, players make a *lot* of noise when they dodge/jump/etc. The more detail you have, the more of these noises you can hear. This gives you the ability to learn how your opponent moves around the map and his/her natural preferences as to pathways through a map. Regaining control of a map is nearly impossible without being able to hear your opponent's movements.

 

[smooth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sycraft Not so much, just get a normal cardioid or hypercardiod mic like they use on stage, an SM58 is a good example, put it near your mouth and keep the gain low. The mic will inherantly not pick much up from behind it, where you get the most sound (you get the most noise from your front speakers, and it'll be pointing away form those), as it will in front of it. I have just such a setup. I've got four speakers that are massive by PC standards (B&W 604S3s in front, 601S2s in back) that I use for basically everything on my PC, including gaming. I then have an SM58 on an articulated arm on my desk which I keep right next to my mouth. I've tested it out and nobody can hear any of my sound, including music I listen to. I suppose I could in theory turn it up to the point htat they could, but I'd be killing my ears in doing so. The only downside is that if I get more than about 3 inches away from the mic, nobody can understand what I'm saying anymore because I'm too quiet. I'm debating replacing the SM58 with a good headworn mic but they are rather expensive. They work well though, they are designed for people like drummers in bands so they can play and sing/talk at the same time.

I couldn't find an SM58 for less than $100. That fits into the category I was thinking of when I referred to expensive mics. Well, to be honest, I wasn't even thinking $100 when I made that statement. More like $60 would qualify as an 'expensive' gaming mic