[subharmonic]

Ok - I'm going to fire this question in here, because it's a fundamental issue with these cans. I tried asking some of these questions in the AMPS section but there were zero biters - maybe the question was in the wrong place.

Don't get me wrong, these cans are excellent - I A'/B'd them against some HD600s and a set of Ultrasone 650s, and they were the clear winner.

But...

They do have a strange low end. Some have said that it's really fast though defined - I agree - but any bass seems to dissipate really quickly, so it's almost at times as though it's very low level.

You see, I use them for mixing tunes I write on my PC( dance music - electro/prog house/breaks). My source is an EMU 1820m soundcard with breakout box (which contains the headphone output) I use to plug in the SA5000. In practise, these cans appear to be very bright.
High end frequencies are very pronounced - I know this as to get my mixes well balanced in the cans, I need to turn down all high end percussion to get the mix sitting right - this means that high hats, cymbals and such get turned way down on my mixing desk.

I'm wondering if I can change something in the signal chain that will compensate for this high end perspective. Would a Zero DAC be any use? (I'm on a small budget.) Would an amp help? (I have an X-Cans V1 lined up - would this help?) Should I be looking at a recabling job? Or should I just bite the bullet and get a different set of cans that are more suitable to the job?
The way I see it, they are good cans - very analytical - but they are tiring - possibly because they are so bright. I do like them, but I'm frustrated by them, so any advice would be greatly appreciated as to how I can get them to sound more neutral.


cheers and thanks in advance!

 

[nickchen]

Sound tuning through amps or cables...nope. That would do 3% change or so.

The SA5 is a coloured beast, and if you can't stand its coloration, you need an EQ - or just other cans.

 

[Dreadhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SA5 is a coloured beast, and if you can't stand its coloration, you need an EQ - or just other cans.

I'm afraid I have to dissagree. They are some of the most neutral and transparent phone but the have a massive bass drop off below 50 Hz (which most people wouldn't ever notice because most instruments don't go that low). I ended up using a digital equalizer (Behringer DEQ2496) in my setup to fix this for them when I need the bass for some electronic music.

I prefer the small bass problems to some of the issues I've had with my HD650s with being laid back. In the end if you need to reach down that far the D5000 may be a better phone for you (but mod it or the bass is a bit farty in my opinion).

 

[M3NTAL]

Agree with above poster.

It sounds "fast" because it rolls off quickly and you don't get that rumble/boom bass overhang what-have-you from the low end.

 

[subharmonic]

See, I had actually thought about getting an eq for the cans (in fact I was actually looking to get a software solution, but I don't think I can get one), but I thought, that surely defeats the purpose of a great set of cans. They can't be a great set of cans if sonically they are so far out. I have heard people on here saying that they have managed to get them sounding more rounded using various amps and such, but in these cases, a sizeable wedge of cash is required - seems a bit nuts to me. It did occur to me though that maybe my output source isn't driving the cans correctly (I know nothing about amplifying headphones) and that's why there is such a high end slant to things with the cans - sounds like this isn't the case then - it's just that the cans aren't very good. I understand that all speakers/headphones are going to colour sounds with their own distinct way, but for such an apparent imbalance, it seems crazy for such an expensive set of cans...

 

[subharmonic]

deleted

 

[subharmonic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3NTAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agree with above poster. It sounds "fast" because it rolls off quickly and you don't get that rumble/boom bass overhang what-have-you from the low end.

Head-Fi'er

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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 89

You might have a point - but in terms of realism it's not right.
Fact is, we're talking about headphones here. Sounds that are really low - sub bass and such - you can't really sense these from headphones because the drivers are so small. You can only really get an appreciation of these frequencies with large scale monitors. It's one of the reasons why they recommend that you don't do what I'm trying to do - ie mix using headphones, as you miss so many frequencies that could cause problems when played on a larger rig like a P.A. for example. Still, I reckon you could get close to something that is workable with cans, as long as you know the sonic signature of the headphones - this signature can be understood with experience of cans - but, when the signature is so far out eg the SA5000, what's the point?

I might actually go back to my Proline 650s to see how I get on...

 

[MaZa]

Closed headphones is what you need if you need to hear deep bass. Because of small drivers, open headphones lose bass strenght fast down there. But I think SA5000 bass extension is quite decent for open headphone standards. And the bass has tons of sharp punch that doesnt get overshadowed by its bright sound signature and its speed is incredible from lows to highs. Its still not 100% neutral. While it might be flat and transparent, its sound is definetly very cool and devoid some natural warmth. Im not sure if these would make good mixing headphones, but for listening music with electronic instruments I cant think of a better headphone (that i have heard) with quick thinking.

 

[Dreadhead]

It all depends on what you're looking for in your phones. To be honest the SA5000 are not designed to go that low and give the kind of response you are looking for. If you are doing electronic closed is probably the way to go. I personally don't view it as a weakness in the phones, no phone is all things to all people, it just can't happen.

And these phones aren't "so far out" I think my correction down at 20 Hz is on the order of 12 db (I do frequency sweeps with tone generations software to equalize). I have other phones (HD650s) where I have misses of that size smack dab in the upper mid-range. It's just where you end up with the problems that the designers can control.

With an equalizer (there are lots of software ones) you can repair most things to make the response very flat all the way through but as Maza said most people find this boring (I do not, I love perfectly transparent and "cold").

On the point of cost have you looked at a GS1000 response curve? Cost has nothing to do with transparency I'm afraid. There are lots of phones that people love that have lots of issues.

Good luck with the Prolines....

 

[subharmonic]

Hmmm. I don't need to hear deep bass - I just want a realistic representation of it, and I'm not convinced the SA5000 give me that, even though they are en excellent sounding can. Like I said in a different thread, it's only really bass heavy tracks I have that seem to produce a realistic amount of bass through these cans. Frou Frou - Let go is a great example of this. On my Tannoys, the bass is arguably too loud in the mix - in the Sony cans, it's about spot on - but this one of very few tracks I have where this is the case. In most cases, the bass in tracks seems a bit light, and that's with me listening, most of the time, to dance music on them, music where the bass should be fairly prominent a lot of the time!

 

[Dreadhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subharmonic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmmm. I don't need to hear deep bass - I just want a realistic representation of it, and I'm not convinced the SA5000 give me that, even though they are en excellent sounding can. Like I said in a different thread, it's only really bass heavy tracks I have that seem to produce a realistic amount of bass through these cans. Frou Frou - Let go is a great example of this. On my Tannoys, the bass is arguably too loud in the mix - in the Sony cans, it's about spot on - but this one of very few tracks I have where this is the case. In most cases, the bass in tracks seems a bit light, and that's with me listening, most of the time, to dance music on them, music where the bass should be fairly prominent a lot of the time!

That makes perfect sense! As I said before they drop off FAST down below 50. So where the track appears right on them then the track probably has too much bass. You need to either tune that part of the master with different phones or equalize the response of the SA5000. They are not bass-master phones and down to about 50 Hz they are amazingly accurate but below that it drops too fast and needs correction for electronic music listening

It appears we are in violent agreement on this point!

 

[subharmonic]

Lol! ok you win! (Sorry we win!)
So, my only solution then is somewhere in the chain I need to get an eq only for the cans. An amp is no use - a DAC is no use (as I already have good one in the 1820m anyway). So - what eq would people suggest then? I don't fancy a Behringer. In the main they make crap gear, and given that the Sony's are so true (to a point) I need something that is really transparent and cheap, so that I can only dial in a wee bit of bass to the mix...

 

[Andrew_WOT]

How well do they respond to recabling?

 

[Dreadhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subharmonic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lol! ok you win! (Sorry we win!) So, my only solution then is somewhere in the chain I need to get an eq only for the cans. An amp is no use - a DAC is no use (as I already have good one in the 1820m anyway). So - what eq would people suggest then? I don't fancy a Behringer. In the main they make crap gear, and given that the Sony's are so true (to a point) I need something that is really transparent and cheap, so that I can only dial in a wee bit of bass to the mix...

There are lots out there both analog and digital.

I'll be honest and say that the behringer is very good and I have a GS-X and a Bel Canto DAC3 (Had a Benchmark DAC1). I generally just use it totally in the digital domain (digital in -> digital out) but I also use the ADC to take the output from my Linn Classik to my DAC3 for those rare instances I'm not listening to lossless from my computer. I honestly haven't heard the DAC section but I've read lots of reviews from both pro's and audiophiles and they say very good for the money (but I can't believe it's up there with a DAC1). It works in my system which I've heard "out-detail" a ES-1/HE-90 combo.

 

[subharmonic]

Still not convinced by the behringer, but if you say it works, it may be worth a bash. I'[ll check it out. The laternative maybe some kind of software routing in the 1820m as (obviously) it has plenty scope with a range of built in EQ's for it's built in DSP. I'm not sure if I can software a signal to the headphones that is different from the main outs. If I can, it may be the solution I'm after...