[n3rdling]

Any chance the higher end DAC will be just a DAC for those who have no use for a dynamic headphone out? (Electrostat or speaker users)

 

[guitarplayer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any chance the higher end DAC will be just a DAC for those who have no use for a dynamic headphone out? (Electrostat or speaker users)

Yes, it will be able to be used as a DAC/headpone amp, a DAC/preamp, or just as as DAC.

Peace,

Lee

 

[aRRR]

But that would mean if you want to use it as a DAC you are paying extra for an integrated amp you wont use.

 

[JayDee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aRRR /img/forum/go_quote.gif But that would mean if you want to use it as a DAC you are paying extra for an integrated amp you wont use.

Most electronics have at least some unused capability. Just to pull an example out of my hat: if you use the balanced AES input exclusively, then the other inputs (which have significant associated parts and expense) are "wasted" and you effectively paid for something you didn't use, right? Well, that's one way to look at it, but keep in mind that a significant part of the cost for any product is all the set-up, inventory-keeping, kitting, design, and so forth. So if I offer multiple versions of the product, each narrowly tailored to address one and only only one kind of usage, that would likely become MORE expensive per copy, because then I have to amortize all of those new production and design costs into each product.

Another point to consider is that people's needs, preferences, and set-ups change all the time. The capability you may not need or want today might be sorely missed tomorrow if it isn't there.

That being said, enough people we've talked to have made this point already about having the headphone driving ability versus not that we've at least considered doing two versions. Many have become rather fixated on the idea that the configuration they don't need somehow compromises the one they do need, which in this design isn't the case at all, but nonetheless we want to endeavor to offer what people want, of course.

So having read these points, if you guys still have input, let us know and it will be considered.

 

[JayDee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do believe the mind affects reactions to hearing, just like it affects sight, touch, and memory. The chassis may actually help people enjoy what they hear from this device more.

Absolutely, yes - the mind-to-sensory interface functions very much like a Kalman filter. But I didn't design the chassis to look beautiful in an attempt to deceive or make up for some sonic deficiency; I designed it to visually compliment and functionally augment the performance of the device, which I already felt was good before I made the enclosure for it.

Audiophiles often discuss the very real effects of the mind's predisposition on their aural perceptions, but this discussion is generally in the context of beautiful or expensive products and how they lead people to believe a product is better than it really is. For some reason, no one seems to consider the reverse case, that is, if you're listening to a product that is repellently ugly, is your mind predisposed to perceive that its performance will be horrid? Why or why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Although, its far to say the average consumer gets more useful information about Bose products from the company then we have for this.

Really? I've tried very hard in my posts here to be as forthcoming as I can be, to give honest and BS-free input about my designs, and how and why I do them as I do. If anyone is aware of some marketing materials from the Bose designers themselves that discuss their circuit board design strategy or the like in significant detail, please point me to them (and I'm not being facetious). I'd be most interested to read them, because everything I've read from Bose sounds like standard marketing boilerplate.

 

[komi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really? I've tried very hard in my posts here to be as forthcoming as I can be, to give honest and BS-free input about my designs, and how and why I do them as I do. If anyone is aware of some marketing materials from the Bose designers themselves that discuss their circuit board design strategy or the like in significant detail, please point me to them (and I'm not being facetious). I'd be most interested to read them, because everything I've read from Bose sounds like standard marketing boilerplate.

Really ?

You elaborate here the way you design your product, i dont want to hear that, if i want to learn about how to design 6 layers buttied ground PCB, will go online and find the info ..

Why you dont post here technical specs of your product - measurements etc, like other companies do ...

All i hear here IS - is great product, and looks great ... hello - i can see the machined brick, and i know how you did it ... I dont need a lession about designing PCB, i am not going to design one any time soon ...

You are designer, and you are here to sell your product, and i am asking why i should buy ?

I dont hear one so far ...

Maybe this thing is the best of this kind - i dont know, but - why 3 of you [yes 3, tester is related to dealer and you - and by the way i dont like the way he talk with other members of this forum] tester - dealer - and designer argue with guys who want more info, you dont provide ANY ...

I wont buy that one - for sure cuz now i am sure is a snake oil ... Just like all theoury i hear about 1000 bucks USB cable ... Geez, for thet money i can make a pute gold one ...

What ever, You are doing what you doing and there is always people with more money than brain ... This think is made for show-up ... I will maybe buy - i like nice looking things, just like Versace sunglasses, Mark Nason boots, True religion jeans, Thomas Sabo jevelty etc etc ...

Sometimes you have to PAY nice looking stuff, or - a brand name, BUT ...

That one o wont buy, even if is the best on the world after this great promotion on this forum ...

Good night Yall ...

 

[santacore]

komi,

If you are truly interested in this product, I think your time would be better served by asking a specific question about the unit, instead of "why should I buy".

The manufacturer has given a lot of input as to why he designed the unit the way he did. There is also technical information on the retailers site. In case you haven't read it, here it is again:
Quote:

Sonicweld Diverter USB to SPDIF converter. This is one of a very few select USB to SPDIF devices that can pass bit perfect 24/96 files via USB. The other devices on the market that can pass 24/96 over USB either require a special driver to be installed, or rely on licensed technology, this product is different. This device needs no special drivers or software and does not rely on licensed technology. This is a unique and elegant solution that will allow computer audio afficionados to get one step closer to the live music experience. Even if one has no need for the ability to listen to 24/96 high resolution music files (although you owe it to yourself to do so...), this device will enhance your experience with 'regular' 16/44.1 CD quality files due to the advanced high speed digital design techniques and PCB layout employed. If you have a high end DAC and listen to music off of a computer, you need this device. A great deal of time and attention has been paid to the power supply circuit, allowing the Diverter to draw power directly from the USB bus, while still realizing the benefits of an external power supply. Elegant PCB design making extensive use of SMD parts and high speed digital design techniques, aggressive common and differential mode filtering and unique ultra low-noise power regulation circuits, allows this device to have an astonishingly low noise floor when powered by the convenient USB bus power, which is already (and always) present. No longer needed, desired, or wanted, is the ubiquitous external, noisy and unwieldy "wall wart" (or "floor wart") of unknown quality and manufacturing tolerance! * Passes up to 24/96 data via USB * No special drivers or software needed * Unique internal power supply regulation for optimum performance using USB bus power - no external power supply needed! * Aggressive common and differential mode filtration circuit designed for optimum performance using USB bus power * Low-jitter master oscillator with ultra-short clock delivery path * All bypass caps are non-microphonic SMT film types * Active inrush current management protects USB controller * Custom silver-plated six layer circuit boards use of high speed digital design PCB layout techniques, with multiple ground and power planes * Custom machined enclosure milled from T-6061 solid billet aluminum alloy with stainless steel constrained layer damping plates * Ultra high quality, ruggedized, Amphenol USB "B" input * Utra high qaulity true 75 ohm BNC digital output (custom CryoParts BNC to RCA adapter provided)

 

[komi]

Quote:

* Passes up to 24/96 data via USB

Yup, got like 1000 @ this moment on eBay


Quote:

* No special drivers or software needed

Really, is this a something this 1000 on eBay dont have ?


Quote:

* Unique internal power supply regulation for optimum performance using USB bus power - no external power supply needed!

Hum, i prefer good external power supply for any USB device !


Quote:

* Aggressive common and differential mode filtration circuit designed for optimum performance using USB bus power

Agresive, diferenttial mode filtration .... hum, i read this word "Agresive" way too much


Quote:

* Low-jitter master oscillator with ultra-short clock delivery path

Read again about this 1000



Quote:

* All bypass caps are non-microphonic SMT film types

Hum, Mouser have like 1000 diferent choices of these @ stock, is like 20 cents a piece ????


Quote:

* Active inrush current management protects USB controller

Active inrush current managment protect what from what ????


Quote:

* Custom silver-plated six layer circuit boards use of high speed digital design PCB layout techniques, with multiple ground and power planes

Silver plated? top and bottom layer - why not gold plated for that money ???
I silver plated some of mine DUY PCBs with Caswell kit ...


Quote:

* Custom machined enclosure milled from T-6061 solid billet aluminum alloy with stainless steel constrained layer damping plates

Looking awesome, i agree, but what means - "stainless steel constrained dumping plates?


Quote:

* Ultra high quality, ruggedized, Amphenol USB "B" input

ULTRA HIGH QUALITY ... Amphenol - far from anything like ULTRAHIGH QUALITY ...


Quote:

* Utra high qaulity true 75 ohm BNC digital output (custom CryoParts BNC to RCA adapter provided)

Read again about ULTRA HIGH QUALITY - but this time is TRUE 75 ohm ... [like 75.00000000000000 ohm right ???





I am not buying this ... You go for it, if you want something AGRESIVE in ULTRA-HIGH QUALITY what ever it is ...

 

[JayDee]

Komi, my dear agent provocateur, this is the first and only time I will respond to you directly, at least while you persist in this antagonistic and wholly unproductive vein.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really ?

Yes, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif You elaborate here the way you design your product, i dont want to hear that, if i want to learn about how to design 6 layers buttied ground PCB, will go online and find the info ..

My comments about six-layer board design, which seem to have caused you special angst, were given in direct response to Santacore's question on this forum, not because I had some prior agenda to spend half my workday writing about it. If you had asked intelligent and meaningful questions, I would have been more than happy to respond to you in similar fashion. Frankly, I'm still utterly bewildered as to exactly what information you seem to desire so badly. Perhaps a personal endorsement from Mark Nason or a co-branding deal with Versace?

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why you dont post here technical specs of your product - measurements etc, like other companies do ...

I have already stated that such measurements will be forthcoming at some future time. Honestly, with the workload I have at this point, that might take several months. I will not be goaded into supplying them until they are ready.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif All i hear here IS - is great product

There seem to have been more than a few here that have presented an opposing point of view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif and looks great ... hello - i can see the machined brick, and i know how you did it ... I dont need a lession about designing PCB, i am not going to design one any time soon ...

By this same logic then, of what use would measurements be to you? Do you have a $70,000 oscilloscope, and are you going to be measuring any products soon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes 3, tester is related to dealer and you...

Yes, but we prefer to be referred to as The Triumvirate.

Ok, seriously now - indeed, Scootermafia does have a relationship with Lee and myself, and Lee has already elucidated the exact nature of that relationship: he is a customer, like several others here, who purchased a Diverter in a full retail transaction. Nothing more, nothing less. I hope I speak for all when I say this shill conspiracy theory of yours has grown very tiresome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wont buy that one - for sure cuz now i am sure is a snake oil ... Just like all theoury i hear about 1000 bucks USB cable...

And you've made it clear on a painfully frequent basis that you don't intend to buy one. That's just fine; no one is trying to compel you to do so, certainly me least of all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif What ever, You are doing what you doing and there is always people with more money than brain ... This think is made for show-up ... I will maybe buy - i like nice looking things, just like Versace sunglasses, Mark Nason boots, True religion jeans, Thomas Sabo jevelty etc etc ...

You're right, Komi. The hallmark characteristic of brainy, fiscally-responsible people is that they're big consumers of the name brands you identified, which clearly have some higher purpose aside from mere "show-up."

 

[manaox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Absolutely, yes - the mind-to-sensory interface functions very much like a Kalman filter. But I didn't design the chassis to look beautiful in an attempt to deceive or make up for some sonic deficiency; I designed it to visually compliment and functionally augment the performance of the device, which I already felt was good before I made the enclosure for it. Audiophiles often discuss the very real effects of the mind's predisposition on their aural perceptions, but this discussion is generally in the context of beautiful or expensive products and how they lead people to believe a product is better than it really is. For some reason, no one seems to consider the reverse case, that is, if you're listening to a product that is repellently ugly, is your mind predisposed to perceive that its performance will be horrid? Why or why not?

Honestly, I wouldn't pay that price for a horrid looking product and I don't assume its sound would be good judging by looks. Just because a product is pretty shouldn't mean it sounds good or bad, but it somehow manages to for many people. Believe it or not, most people will look down on an ugly piece of equipment and actually refuse to try it. I can't count the number of times with just my fingers I've witnessed DIY amps that actually look quite nice and sound amazing, but aren't blinged up with a big manufacturers name and logo on them up get passed over by visitors at meets.

I personally would not pay the same price for a horrid looking piece of professionally made equipment as I would for a nicer looking one with the same specs, so I agree that things should in a perfect world look nice when professionally made, but I try not to judge sound quality by looks (I worry some people do and many may not even realize it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really? I've tried very hard in my posts here to be as forthcoming as I can be, to give honest and BS-free input about my designs, and how and why I do them as I do. If anyone is aware of some marketing materials from the Bose designers themselves that discuss their circuit board design strategy or the like in significant detail, please point me to them (and I'm not being facetious). I'd be most interested to read them, because everything I've read from Bose sounds like standard marketing boilerplate.

You give great points about design in general and little about the actual design specifics of this product. All I can guess you did so far is use really short traces, all SMD parts, and kept as compact as possible using six ground planes. Granted that is more design philosophy then BOSE gives, but not saying as much about performance in actuality. Your circuit or chips even with extremely high tolerances could be the same circuit design as several other products at a tenth the price still. Bose is similar, because they tell you they do stuff with no real explanation as to using what and how while at the same time claiming to be a great value for the amazing function they perform.

Straight from the Bose website:
"BOSE® around-ear headphones answer the call for smooth, high-performance sound in a very lightweight package. Hear a greater range of music whether you're plugged into a computer or on the go with a portable media device. Their ergonomic design keeps them remarkably comfortable and lightweight, even as proprietary BOSE® headphone technology reveals the rich acoustical landscape of your music."

"Key Features
TriPort® acoustic headphone structure TriPort® acoustic headphone structure
Proprietary BOSE® technology utilises three small ports in the earcups to produce a rich audio performance that’s remarkable for headphones this small.

Acoustic equalisation Acoustic equalisation
An innovative BOSE® technology that fine-tunes the frequency response of the headphones and allows you to enjoy exceptional audio performance."

And so, you make similar in context claims that you reduce jitter and make an spdif signal from USB better then anything else dedicated on the market through the use of SMD components, six ground planes, and a proprietary circuit. It also gets rave reviews without a fair comparison to competitors in my eyes for something at this price (granted, no one but you has dared charge this much, empirical is pretty close and they actually give more information and design philosophy or at least, they used to when all they did was modify the M-Audio transit to 10x its normal price). So in this way I see it very similar.

Now's the kicker. Specs and measurement on their headphones and speakers are supplied by the manufacturer to every retailer for BOSE that they list. Granted this isn't a frequency or cascade chart (not like that tells you everything either) and tells us little about how they actually sound, but with that and a picture, I feel like I have more info that I could use if I wanted to to get an idea of their capability for producing detail.

Bose® - Around-Ear Headphones - Silver - Around-Ear

" * Bose proprietary technology delivers exceptional performance across the entire audible spectrum from a small earcup structure
* Proprietary acoustic equalization offers rich, realistic sound at all frequencies
* 40mm drivers for powerful, convincing bass response — without the need for artificial bass boost

* Extraordinarily lightweight — just 5 ounces!
* Thin, adjustable headband and swiveling, cushioned earcups for superior fit and long-wearing comfort
* Fashion-forward design with sharp, metallic finish
* Sensitivity: 97dB
* Impedance: 32 ohms
* 6' attached cord
* Includes 5' extension cable, 1/4" adapter plug and drawstring carry bag "

We know it uses a small earcup, 40mm drivers, has a sensitivity of 97dB, and an impedance of 32 ohms. Its not enough to make an informed decision about sound granted. Buts its a little more than saying generalities that everyone should have expected anyway such as has a power supply, low jitter, SMD parts, and these connectors and cables (ok, maybe not including the six ground planes, but that doesn't say much about real life performance either). There are actual numbers, info about internal parts, and measurements there with BOSE, your saying low jitter and giving design philosophies isn't maybe good enough to convince someone to really believe in this thing as a success. I think you used good parts for this and started with a good strategy and means, but we want to know some numbers about how it performs as well so that we can reasonably assume it does well and may be worth the extra dough. What is "low-noise" to you? What is "low-jitter"? What makes it "unique"? What is considered "optimum performance" and how do you know that? So many other similar devices already claim this and give measurements. Bottom line, how do you think we should compare your product to others without buying it?

I'll eat my humble pie and say that even with all the things you have told me now about design philosophy, I don't think I could design an award winning circuit right now, mine would be only one that works at best and wouldn't probably be the easiest/best method even. Design philosophy and an intense knowledge of the options out there, testing extensively, and getting the right numbers back are all required to label it a success for me. I really enjoy internal pictures of electronics, but agree that they won't tell me much. I know the numbers are coming, I'll wait and try not to poke at that as long as people can stop claiming this is the ultimate converter to enjoy the music with by using only their ears and extremely minimal comparison.

 

[komi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee /img/forum/go_quote.gif My comments about six-layer board design, which seem to have caused you special angst, were given in direct response to Santacore's question on this forum, not because I had some prior agenda to spend half my workday writing about it. If you had asked intelligent and meaningful questions, I would have been more than happy to respond to you in similar fashion. Frankly, I'm still utterly bewildered as to exactly what information you seem to desire so badly. Perhaps a personal endorsement from Mark Nason or a co-branding deal with Versace? I have already stated that such measurements will be forthcoming at some future time. Honestly, with the workload I have at this point, that might take several months. I will not be goaded into supplying them until they are ready. There seem to have been more than a few here that have presented an opposing point of view. By this same logic then, of what use would measurements be to you? Do you have a $70,000 oscilloscope, and are you going to be measuring any products soon? Yes, but we prefer to be referred to as The Triumvirate. Ok, seriously now - indeed, Scootermafia does have a relationship with Lee and myself, and Lee has already elucidated the exact nature of that relationship: he is a customer, like several others here, who purchased a Diverter in a full retail transaction. Nothing more, nothing less. I hope I speak for all when I say this shill conspiracy theory of yours has grown very tiresome. And you've made it clear on a painfully frequent basis that you don't intend to buy one. That's just fine; no one is trying to compel you to do so, certainly me least of all. You're right, Komi. The truest identifying characteristic of people with more brains than money is that they're big consumers of the name brands you identified, which clearly have some higher purpose aside from mere "show-up."

Well, i can see you are intelegent person, you wont be seeling 100.000 bucks speakers if you are not - right ?

"Shill Conspiracy" ???

OK, one simple question , tell me why should i buy your product, and why is priced on 1000 bucks ... Is simple like that ...

Give me answer* and i am buying ... If you dont have answer, all your sweet talking is worth a 0 ...

*please avoid words "Ultra hight-quality", "6 layers pcb", "CNC machined aluminum" etc ...

Just simple answer - like you are seller in the store and i just walk in, asking why is that think 1000 bucks ...

 

[n3rdling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most electronics have at least some unused capability. Just to pull an example out of my hat: if you use the balanced AES input exclusively, then the other inputs (which have significant associated parts and expense) are "wasted" and you effectively paid for something you didn't use, right? Well, that's one way to look at it, but keep in mind that a significant part of the cost for any product is all the set-up, inventory-keeping, kitting, design, and so forth. So if I offer multiple versions of the product, each narrowly tailored to address one and only only one kind of usage, that would likely become MORE expensive per copy, because then I have to amortize all of those new production and design costs into each product. Another point to consider is that people's needs, preferences, and set-ups change all the time. The capability you may not need or want today might be sorely missed tomorrow if it isn't there. That being said, enough people we've talked to have made this point already about having the headphone driving ability versus not that we've at least considered doing two versions. Many have become rather fixated on the idea that the configuration they don't need somehow compromises the one they do need, which in this design isn't the case at all, but nonetheless we want to endeavor to offer what people want, of course. So having read these points, if you guys still have input, let us know and it will be considered.

Hi JayDee,

I don't use any dynamic headphones, only electrostatic and speakers. I think if I were to get one of these all in one DACs in the future I'd always be aware that I'm only using a portion of the box, which means I paid a good amount for major functions I'll never use. It's not the same as leaving an input unused as an input costs almost nothing. According to an earlier post about the forthcoming DACs, you guys are designing both the DAC and headphone amp to be top notch. That means there's a significant amount of money going towards the headphone amp and in my case going to waste in my system. I'd never buy a $15k Accuphase player just for the transport section, as an example. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[ms142]

Hm, I have a suggestion for Scootermafia: As you know, the Musiland unit is the very cheap ($60?) and does 24/192. Its main disadvantage as you pointed out is that it supports PC only. If you can afford the Sonicweld, $60 should be trivial... You might satisfy everyone's curiosity if you can get one and do a subjective comparison using a PC (shouldn't be hard to find I suppose?)

 

[JayDee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi JayDee, I don't use any dynamic headphones, only electrostatic and speakers. I think if I were to get one of these all in one DACs in the future I'd always be aware that I'm only using a portion of the box, which means I paid a good amount for major functions I'll never use. It's not the same as leaving an input unused as an input costs almost nothing. According to an earlier post about the forthcoming DACs, you guys are designing both the DAC and headphone amp to be top notch. That means there's a significant amount of money going towards the headphone amp and in my case going to waste in my system. I'd never buy a $15k Accuphase player just for the transport section, as an example. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Understood, n3rdling, and many thanks for your input. I think it is likely that we'll offer two versions, though the DAC-only model will come after the one with the built-in headphone drive capability - that one is already designed.

 

[scootermafia]

Not a bad idea, I'll think about it. The Musiland isn't that much different than the Pop Pulse, which I have already said time and time again sounds inferior to the Diverter. This I could figure out on day 1. I found out that the digital filter installed on my DAC8 only supports up to 24/48 so I couldn't test out the high-res capabilities of the Musiland Monitor 01. For CDs ripped to wav/aiff on a Mac with Amarra, the Diverter sounds awesome. It wouldn't be a fair comparison as the Monitor 01 doesn't work with Amarra. The Pop Pulse does work with Amarra, and again, the sound is way off the mark - simply strident, less musical and fun to my ear, smaller soundstage/diffuse details. I went back and forth between them over and over, and the result is the same - it is very obvious, and I am sure I am not mistaken.