[elmoe]

Obviously else this thread wouldnt exist now would it...

 

[Flea Bag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom If what you say is true, then why isn't it shut down already? Don't make the mistake of assuming that I'm defending Grado because of some financial incentive. That would be wrong and ill-informed, but fortunately we don't ban people for that. Personally, I'm defending Grado because I think that it's the right thing to do. That last grado thread was IMHO an embarassment, and I'm ashamed of some of the things that were posted there that we leave there today because we don't generally like to delete posts or lock threads.

I think you've misunderstood me... If the thread were to be shut down for no good reason, then it would be too obvious that Head-Fi is defending Grado beyond any 'neutral' reason. I believe forum discussions should be 'neutral' and unaffected by financial relations, image or just personal/corporate embarassment.

My point: I hope you can forgive me for saying this: As a moderator, you are not as unbiased or neutral as the everyday poster. You represent Head-Fi to a certain extent and by your position of responsibility, you have a duty to maintain a good relationship with your sponsors or other forces in the headphone market -even if some of those 'forces' do not directly involve money. To support my views and my own reasoning, I also like to state that at least one moderator has admitted that his views are affected by his role within Head-Fi.

In closing, I don't trust the views of moderators on such sensitive topics as Grado's headphones, HeadRoom's amplifiers etc as your roles/responsibilities will compromise your views and intentions to a certain extent. I hope you're not offended by my words. Nothing personal involved here. I never said that you or any moderator is lying and I don't think you'll benefit financially from defending Grado but your role in Head-Fi means that you're not quite that netural but are perhaps more 'politically correct' -sometimes to the sacrifice of an unbiased view.

 

[elmoe]

He has his opinions as we have ours, him being a moderator doesn't make him lose the right to give out his personal opinion, same goes for each of us, and noone should believe him strictly because hes a moderator, that doesn't mean anything in terms of knowledge here. I mostly agree with Flea Bag here though.

 

[Flea Bag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle Maybe we should leave this thread alone, since most of your post is purely subjective nonsense and all you "GCC's" are going to do is complain and not list any specific design changes that would actually improve the headphones. You say "constructive criticism"? To be constructive, you need to include examples of improvements and how you would implement improvements, while keeping the "sound signature" intact and the cost of the headphones where it is now. Then call or write to John Grado. I look at the Grado headphones sort of like one could think of a Formula One racing car. The people interested in speed, weight and aerodynamics would marvel at the design. The people who only go to see crashes would go "What a piece of s--t" when the car shatters into pieces after it hits the wall.

Beagle, in my post, I've already listed examples or improvements that Grado should implement in plain and simple English. If Grado requires more information from me to improve his headbands, then I doubt he has the knowledge required to run his company into the following years of the 21st century.

I'll just state my suggestion again if you don't understand what I typed in my previous post: Grado needs to source around for any (there are many) manufacturers who are able to produce headbands/housings more efficiently than Grado is able to (there are just as many).

If I were to make my suggestions any more advanced, then he'll have to emply me so I can show him how to do contracts/outsource.

Keep in mind that he should still produce his drivers in-house since he says that he doesn't trust another manufacturer to do it for him

but there is no valid reason why he shouldn't outsource his housings/headbands when it means lower cost, same sound signature, better build and happier customers... You would love to have your Grados (from SR60-225 or at least the $200 SR225) with Sennheiser/Beyerdynamic equivalent padding (at the same or perhaps even cheaper retail price) right?

Now the only downside to this method (as a manager/director at Grado) is for Mr Grado to tell his inefficient headband/housing manufacturing staff that he has to let go of them. That kind of difficult decision is compulsory for anyone of his position in the company. A fact of life and he can't run away from it. He has had a long enough time of commericial success and he has had a long enough time to find improvements to his products and he has still failed to do so.

About your analogy (F1 car - Grado headphone). It's quite flawed. All headfiers should agree on the following points about the full and complete headphone listening experience:

1. Sound quality (Grado does well enough here. However, let's not forget that some Grado listeners like me find it impossible to listen to his headphone without flats which can't be purchased new from anywhere except from Todd. Funny how the HF-1 is also done through Todd.)
2. Comfort (Considering the price of some of their headphones, Grado has failed miserably in this department)
3. Build quality (I'm not going to discuss this in this post. However, by switcing to a specialised headband/housing manufacturer, build quality will improve too.)

If you don't have at least points 1&2 in your headphone, you're missing out.

Beagle, you quoted my post as being subjective. Read through my three points in post #68 (which you quoted). Please tell which of those three points are subjective. I'm not angry with you though so don't get me wrong. However, this doesn't contribute to the intention of the thread so I'd prefer it if we discuss this via PM.

 

[Flea Bag]

I forgot to mention this in my previous post: If you're not a Grado Constructive Criticiser (Grado CC)

please ignore this thread. The thread starter and others too have stated that this thread was intended for Head-Fiers to post any comments/improvements Grado to improve their products. This thread is not concerned with posters who would like to convince us that Grado's products are the whole 9 yards and that they don't require any improvement.

You can also defend Grado's products in your own way by starting a Grado praise thread.

Hopefully that'll be a nice and peaceful solution.

 

[elmoe]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am now official a GCC member xD

We should have a GCC Team

I wonder if they'll start PMing me with insults now haha

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flea Bag I forgot to mention this in my previous post: If you're not a Grado Constructive Criticiser (Grado CC) please ignore this thread. The thread starter and others too have stated that this thread was intended for Head-Fiers to post any comments/improvements Grado to improve their products. This thread is not concerned with posters who would like to convince us that Grado's products are the whole 9 yards and that they don't require any improvement. You can also defend Grado's products in your own way by starting a Grado praise thread. Hopefully that'll be a nice and peaceful solution.

May I ask very earnestly, why Grado? I don't quite understand the motivation for all of this critiscm.

Is it possible, that perhaps, Mr. Grado is not trying to satisfy your specific needs? In other words, you may have valid complaints but as a whole Grado and his customers (by the logic of sales) are satisfied with the current line of products.

Trogdor

 

[elmoe]

Grado because John Grado actually reads the forums? I thought that was pretty obvious...

 

[Trogdor]

 

[elnero]

Sometimes I just don't believe what I read on Head-Fi. Are people so self centered these days that other peoples opinions have no merit? Why should people who are happy with their Grado's not be allowed to post in a thread where people are complaining or making "suggestions" for changes to something they love and don't want to see changed? Are they so arrogant that they think they know what's best for someone elses company without having walked in the owners shoes? I worked for a speaker manufacturer for a short time but in that time I gained alot of insight into how a small audio manufacturing facility runs and the hurdles necessary to get over in order to succeed.

Has it occurred to any of the naysayers that some of these design decisions may have been decided for sonic reasons? I'm not claiming this as an actual reason because I haven't talked to John about it but it is quite possible that the hot glue provided the best results both sonically and structurally for what he was looking to achieve. The same could be said of the pads and the material used. Even the headband because of it's flexibility may have been designed with a certain amount of customization in mind. I have absolutely no issues with the headband design or comfort or the pads and wouldn't want to see them changed especially if those changes had a negative sonic impact in.

People need to realize that just because they have a problem with something like comfort doesn't mean everybody does. And just because they read a few posts on Head-Fi of people complaining about comfort that still doesn't mean it's the majority that feel that way, remember it's usually the people that have a problem that post to complain not the people who are happy. For me personally the comfort of my RS-1's has been second to none yet the HD580/600/650's which are widely praised for their comfort have had clamping issues which caused discomfort to one degree or other. I'll admit it took a couple of weeks for my ears to adjust to the scratchiness of the Grado pads but now when I put them on it's like I'm not wearing anything.

I look at my Grado's and I see a pair of headphones that provide a sound which no other company has even come close to duplicating. I see a headphone that I percieve as being designed in a bit of an old school fashion. Aesthetically I like their wood cups and leather headband, to me it oozes class in a way that not even the woody Audio Technica's do. The more time I've spent with them the more I think the design is somewhat ingenious because for a small company they seem relatively easy to produce by hand yet offer a level of easy customization not available on most other headphones.

Do I think Grado's are the be all and end all? No of course not. There are definately things that I personally would like to see done or changed. If I had my druthers I'd have a stop on the earcup swivel so they can't rotate beyond 360 degrees which should eliminate the cord twisting and yes, I to would love a Grado storage box but not enough to whine about it incessantly though. It's mainly because I've seen pics of the older ones and lust after one. I could build something but it would be nice to have something official, something that says "Grado". I wouldn't care if it comes with the headphones or not but I do think it would be a nice option for those who want something like that for storage. That's probably not cost effective though because the volume most likely wouldn't be high enough. But these are personal preferences and I have to think Grado has his reasons for designing things they way he does so I'm not going to complain about it.

In fact I guess I really don't quite understand all this complaining, what is it's root? Sound being subjective makes them hard to assess on those merits but going on my own experiences I feel at least the two models I've heard (SR60's & RS-1's) are easily competitive sonically in their price ranges and some would say they're competitive in even higher price brackets. Is it build quality? It doesn't seem like people are complaining about outright failures very much and don't forget in any electronics manufacturing there is bound to be an amount of failures. So if it isn't excessive outright failures is it the construction they percieve shoddy? Again though, without excessive amounts of failures it's pretty hard to say the build quality is shoddy especially give they use similar materials like plastic, vinyl, metal, leather and wood as other headphones on the market. So then are the complaints really mainly due to the simple design and retro styling? If so don't these complainers realize that is part of the reason some people love them and very likely a large part of the reason they sound as they do? Again I'm just trying to understand because it seems to me like these complaints are more people trying to force a personal bias on everyone rather than constructive critism of outright proven faults in a design.

 

[elmoe]

The root of the complaining is mainly brought on by people like you who keep bringing new arguments for us to talk about. We stated what we had to say, YOU keep going at it, so we keep on answering, on that thought, I'm out of this thread, because this is really going nowhere.

Trogdor:

right back at you kid.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan The root of the complaining is mainly brought on by people like you who keep bringing new arguments for us to talk about. We stated what we had to say, YOU keep going at it, so we keep on answering, on that thought, I'm out of this thread, because this is really going nowhere.

I'm not "going at" anything, I'm not the one complaining, but I am trying to figure why exactly a few people think their opinions are more valid (or valid at all for that matter) than those with opposing views. Why specifically should they be heard and not the people who support Grado and believe the designs are well implemented, comfortable and sound great. For the thread starter and others I'm trying to make them see that not everyone feels like they do and that some of these arguments like comfort might be a bit more subjective than they think and some, like the hot glue, may even have sonic reasons. Posting things lumping all Grado's users as one unhappy group is unrepresentative of the truth and posting for Grado to see in hopes that Grado will implement "change" should be given a counterpoint by those who feel change is unwarranted and unnecessary.

Again, to clarify, whether you take sonics into account or not really doesn't matter if you accept that, whether you're a fan or not, the sound quality of each model is competitive within it's price range. What I'm trying to get a handle on is what the actual complaints are based on because to my knowledge Grado has not had to deal with excessive failure rates so saying build quality is poor suddenly seems rather subjective and unrealistic which makes me think there's more at work like not liking the design, retro styling, simplicity or something else.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan Grado because John Grado actually reads the forums? I thought that was pretty obvious...

I sincerely hope that, given all the overtly personalized statements in this and the last thread, he does NOT read the forums too carefully. I would be very much embarassed if I learned that he did.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom I sincerely hope that, given all the overtly personalized statements in this and the last thread, he does NOT read the forums too carefully. I would be very much embarassed if I learned that he did.

I'd have to agree some of what has been said in this and other threads is very much an embarassment and a black mark on the community as a whole.

 

[Duncan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flea Bag In closing, I don't trust the views of moderators on such sensitive topics as Grado's headphones, HeadRoom's amplifiers etc as your roles/responsibilities will compromise your views and intentions to a certain extent.

Excuse me??

Do you think that the moderators are paid off by audio companies to promote their products?

...If so, i've certainly been kept well out of the loop... and if I can't trust my own opinions, then whose can I?