[Doku]

Hey guys,
 
I've had a set of the original Klipsch Promedia 4.1 series since their introduction back in 2002. I had a staticy volume knob but dealt with it. Now I'm trying to replace them with something even better. I'm looking for controlled sound. Possibly studio monitors.  
 
DAC: 
I'm getting into Hi-Res music and I really would like to get an external USB DAC that can support higher than CD Audio quality. Also, I was looking for one that had both a headphone jack on the front for my Sennheisers and something on the back to go to an amp. After looking around, it seems like the Audioengine D1 is a highly recommended DAC that is at a good price point. I have the money to pay for Fireflies or something, but they seem to be very headphone focused and I'm just not sure I'm going to notice the difference between 24bit / 96Khz and 32bit/192Khz (or even how often I could source 32bit/192khz). So, even though the DAC has to downsample 24/192 to 24/96, I think I'm OK with that. I only have a few albums in DSD 2.8 anyway and I might just start buying 24/192 PCM instead. 
 
I also considered getting the Sony UDA-1/B. It's really odd tho. It's pretty expensive and has an fairly low powered amp built into it, but it does support every possible high res format I could get my hands on. Maybe it would be good to use it to power a pair of my old Klipsch speakers or something. 
 
Speakers:
I wanted to take advantage of the sale on the Klipsch Reference II RB-61 at first, but after looking at amps for a while it seemed like they would be overkill. I noticed the Audioengine 5+ seemed to have it all with the amp built in and stuff. And it seems to pair pretty naturally with the D1. Other choices were the M-Audio BX8 monitors for some monitors with a wider frequency response. The Audioengine A2+ (which comes with a DAC that isn't as good as the D1?) with a sub. 
 
Packages Considering:
Package A:  AudioEngine Upgrade
DAC: Audioengine D1 $170
Amp: in the speakers
Speakers: Audioengine A5+ $400
Total: $570
Pros: All same company, good reviews on everything, good value.  Cons: Can't do all HiRes formats. Frequency response might warrant subwoofer? 
 
Package B: Sony brand whore ( I use a lot of Sony products... )
DAC: Sony UDA-1/B $800
Amp: In the DAC
Speakers: Existing Speakers? Klipsch Reference II RB-41 + some kind of subwoofer? 
Total $800 + $200 (Klipsch?) 
Pros: Plays all HiRes formats, DAC and amp in one for lower power computer speakers? Cons: Expensive. Can't figure out a speaker setup. 
 
Package C: More classic PC style? 
DAC: Asus Xonar Essence STX $170
Amp: In the speakers
Speakers: Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 $130 (or repair my 4.1 setup)
Total $170 - $300
Pros: Plays everything but DSD. I really liked my old Klipsch 4.1 which I always ran in 2.1 mode anyway, why mess up a good (cheap) thing? 
 
Also, when I was into car audio I really liked the sound of Focal speakers. Looking into the desktop market it seems like they have a few like the Focal Alpha 65. Anyone know if these warrant the high price? 

 

[PurpleAngel]

External DAC/amp
http://www.audio-gd.com/Products-EN.htm
Audio-GD NFB-15,dual WM8741 DAC chips, $270 + shipping ($45?).
Audio-GD, NFB-11, Sabre ES9018 DAC chip, $365+ shipping($45?), this unit supports DSD.
Both come with USB, optical & coaxial inputs.
Both come with amplified headphone jack and 2-channel line-output (RCAs)
 
2.0 studio monitors (priced in pairs)
Monoprice 5", $171
Monoprice 8", $255
JBL LSR305", $265
JBL LSR308", $500
Emotiva AirMotiv 5s, $350
 
Cable to connect the Audio-GD to the studio monitors, under $10
 
So your looking at around $500 to $900, depending on what combo appeals to you (if any do?)
I myself use the Monoprice 5" studio monitors with the NFB-15.32 (older version of the NFB-15).

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Also, when I was into car audio I really liked the sound of Focal speakers. Looking into the desktop market it seems like they have a few like the Focal Alpha 65. Anyone know if these warrant the high price? 

 

I haven't tried that one, but very generally one of the things you're paying for with Focal and similar brands is the cabinet workmanship. I'm not saying that the other parts aren't worth the total price, but the quality of the cabinets are simply a lot better - thicker MDF, better finish, not straight out boxy (the wood planks on the flanks are exterior bracing to prevent flexing I think), etc - and they'll look right at home next to home audio speakers. If anything, other brands (both below and above the price, like KRK and Genelec) use plainer cabinets but aren't any less solid, however the simpler finish and rounded corners are used as they anticipate that these will get lugged around a lot (you can easily damage corners - look at improperly packed or constantly moved speakers with vinyl peeling at the corners; plus the plain finish is less prone to getting and showing scratches vs glossy wood stains). The Focal monitors are in a way using home audio cabinets but with a plainer finish (that doesn't look like a piano or violin).

 

That said not all cheaper brands are horrible. My $150 Swans D1080MkII-08 aren't too horrible on the knock test even though you can clearly see the cheap vinyl and the panels made of 0.5in MDF (the black piano finish on the front cleverly takes the attention away from the vinyl from where you're seated). The KRK Rokit 6 have really, really solid cabinets, reproduce guitar tones similar to the K2P polykevlars (if you were into car audio when these were around; thy even look similar with a yellow polykevlar cone), and best of all the pro design of the cabinets are very durable against wear and tear. My friend lugs it around for events in his trunk along with other gear with not even any cloth around them, then puts them up on a couple of bar stools and runs the cables to them from the inside through a window when we're grilling, and even in good light and two years of this they don't look the part.

 

Basically if it won't burden you bank accounts to get them then keep them in consideration until you get a lot more feedback (AFAIK they're more neutral than the Rokit), otherwise, there's the KRK.

 

 

 

[Doku]

So, one other thing.
 
My motherboard is an Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 1 with a RealTek ACL1150. This is a pretty well respected onboard option. Would it be easier to just optical  line out of my onboard into a decent set of monitors? I realize I won't be able to play DSD files easily but I could drop more on the speakers. 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/685163/a-researched-question-about-realtek-1150-vs-sound-card

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  So, one other thing.
 
My motherboard is an Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 1 with a RealTek ACL1150. This is a pretty well respected onboard option. Would it be easier to just optical out of my onboard into a decent set of monitors? I realize I won't be able to play DSD files easily but I could drop more on the speakers. 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/685163/a-researched-question-about-realtek-1150-vs-sound-card

 

I'm not sure what monitors out there have optical inputs; if there were they would likely be consumer-type rather than professional monitors, with an active Master speaker that has the amp and the DAC, and a passive Slave speaker. I did a quick Google search and only found one M-Audio that has an optical input DAC; the other one I know that has a DAC in it are Audioengines and they use USB.

 

As for USB, I'd rather not sweat it unless you're buying real DSD gear. A lot of DACs, universal players, and soundcards don't actually use a true DSD DAC - look at how the specs cite "24bit/xxxkhz." That's CD/PCM, not DSD, which uses a 1bit/4.7Ghz DAC; what many of these sources and decoders just do is use some kind of processor to convert DSD to PCM first, then decode it through their PCM DAC. At least A&K actually cites on their website that they do the DSD to PCM conversion on the compatible players (which on a portable can mean more processor use and less run time with each charge).

 

I had a Pioneer SACD player before and I only learned about that much later, which was why I couldn't hear any difference at all with SACD. I got the entry level Sony SACDP after that and even then all I could hear was a blacker background, and for all I know that was the analog output stage design. The lows improved in impact and the highs were less grainy but they are likely from the quieter background, and any good PCM DAC should make the difference inaudible (the only reference I had at home then was the Pioneer DV-6xx universal player and an early 1990s Onkyo flagship CDP).

 

In any case if you want to try the DSD there's the Schiit Loki which is a real DSD DAC for not a lot of money. It has analog bypass inputs that send the signal out the same outputs so you can hook up whatever DAC or soundcard you have to it, and just manually select it as the output device when playing DSD.

 

[Doku]

 (not sure why I said optical...) I meant using the line out. 
 
Yeah, I know many DACs don't support DSD. I bought a few albums in DSD format to listen on my Sony Xperia Z3 devices which support playback of DSD 64 High Resolution audio, I'm assuming, like you say, by converting it to 24/192Khz PCM before playback since that seems to be what the audio codec supports.
 
Anyway now I'm wondering if I even care to spend money if the 1150 DAC is that good. If all I'm getting is native DSD, DSD availability is so rare, it hardly seems worth it. Anyway, given all that, I think it would make more sense to just get a nice set of monitors for my computer hooked up to the onboard sound. 
 
Given an $800 budget, I'm looking at:
 
2x JBL LSR308", $500
2x Focal Alpha 65 $800
2x Yamaha HS8 $650
2x Audioengine A5+ Audioengine S8 $780
2x Klipsch RB-81 + some amp I guess. 
 
I guess I'll have to get a headphone line out to XLR cable. Hopefully this cable is mostly irrelevant to good sound. 
 
Can anyone suggest a good desktop amp that can push 50wx2 or 100wx2 so I can power those Klipsch RB-81s? 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Doku /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Yeah, I know many DACs don't support DSD. I bought a few albums in DSD format to listen on my Sony Xperia Z3 devices which support playback of DSD 64 High Resolution audio, I'm assuming, like you say, by converting it to 24/192Khz PCM before playback since that seems to be what the audio codec supports.

 

It's not just the codec, but the hardware itself - a DSD DAC chip is not the same as a regular DAC chip.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doku /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I guess I'll have to get a headphone line out to XLR cable. Hopefully this cable is mostly irrelevant to good sound. 

 

If you get monitors with RCA inputs in addition to XLR/TRRS then you might as well use a TRS to RCA cable. Using balanced XLR from source/preamp to monitors at short distances is already debatable (actually there isn't any known measurable difference), there won't be any gains to be made using a single ended output to go into balanced inputs. If anything, you'd have the find a cable that splits a long way of its length, since symmetrical active monitors like those you listed would be far apart from each other, as opposed to a Master-Slave config that has the amp for both speakers on the Master speaker.

 

In any case you can always just get the JBL monitors and use an AudioGD NFB-15, even with RCA outputs on it instead of XLR. Balanced output DAC-HPamp-Preamp units will cost a lot more than those JBL monitors actually, unless you use an audio interface. Personally if you don't need a powerful, low output impedance headphone amplifier circuit and PSU, you might as well just get an interface if it's almost exclusively for powered monitors.

 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  So, one other thing.
 
My motherboard is an Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 1 with a RealTek ACL1150. This is a pretty well respected onboard option. Would it be easier to just optical out of my on-board into a decent set of monitors? I realize I won't be able to play DSD files easily but I could drop more on the speakers. 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/685163/a-researched-question-about-realtek-1150-vs-sound-card

 
Except for higher end computer gaming 5.1 speaker setups, optical is not a common input into studio monitors/speakers.
You could get a DAC with an optical input to the motherboard and connect that DAC to the studio monitors (using analog audio).

 

[cel4145]

2x JBL LSR308", $500
2x Focal Alpha 65 $800
2x Yamaha HS8 $650
2x Audioengine A5+ Audioengine S8 $780
2x Klipsch RB-81 + some amp I guess. 

I guess I'll have to get a headphone line out to XLR cable. Hopefully this cable is mostly irrelevant to good sound. 

Can anyone suggest a good desktop amp that can push 50wx2 or 100wx2 so I can power those Klipsch RB-81s? 

First, why the Audioengine S8 sub? Find the best sub you can. Don't buy a sub just by brand name. No need to match the sub and speaker brand.

Second, make sure you listen to them before buying Klipsch RB-81s for a desktop setup. Many people find them fatiguing.

If you want to run passive speakers, get an AVR and connect it to your computer via HDMI or optical. Start with using all your budget for the AVR and speakers, then add a sub six months or so down the road.

 

[Doku]

First, why the Audioengine S8 sub? Find the best sub you can. Don't buy a sub just by brand name. No need to match the sub and speaker brand.

Second, make sure you listen to them before buying Klipsch RB-81s for a desktop setup. Many people find them fatiguing.

If you want to run passive speakers, get an AVR and connect it to your computer via HDMI or optical. Start with using all your budget for the AVR and speakers, then add a sub six months or so down the road.

 
I just assumed it would have a balanced tuned sound against the 5+s. 
 
Yeah, I agree on listening to them. I keep forgetting I live in Orange County, CA now instead of middle of nowhere Alabama, so I keep forgetting there's probably stores around here that actually sell these things.
 
Really, as far as a sub goes, I'd really rather get monitors with a response low enough not to want one. I really like the sound of Focals so I need to get my ears on them again to see if they are worth the increased cost. Based on specs and my current listening history the Alpha 65s are kinda top of my list right now. 

 

[cel4145]

I just assumed it would have a balanced tuned sound against the 5+s. 

Nope. The only advantage is you don't have to figure out what kind of connections you need in a different sub. But subs vary widely in quality, and there's often better deals to be had. Go here if you want to learn about subs: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/

Yeah, I agree on listening to them. I keep forgetting I live in Orange County, CA now instead of middle of nowhere Alabama, so I keep forgetting there's probably stores around here that actually sell these things.

Definitely worth giving them a listen. You might very well like them. They tend to be a bit forward sounding, so they stand out in big box stores. But they can be fatiguing, particularly if this is for nearfield usage. For most people, I would recommend the HSU HB-1 MK2s, Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SEs, or Chane A1rx-c for comparable quality class of speakers, but less potential to be fatiguing.

Really, as far as a sub goes, I'd really rather get monitors with a response low enough not to want one. I really like the sound of Focals so I need to get my ears on them again to see if they are worth the increased cost. Based on specs and my current listening history the Alpha 65s are kinda top of my list right now. 

Focal definitely makes good home audio speakers and monitors. But don't assume they'll have the same sound as the car audio. And speaking of Focal, you might consider going for the Focal Chorus 806v demos:http://www.musicdirect.com/p-213598-focal-chorus-806v-bookshelf-speakers-ebony-demo.aspx Now that is a HECK of a deal

As for sub or not, well, how much bass do you need? Do you know how low you expect the speakers to go before rolling off in frequency response? That's the place to start to figure out your needs.

 

[Doku]

Nope. The only advantage is you don't have to figure out what kind of connections you need in a different sub. But subs vary widely in quality, and there's often better deals to be had. Go here if you want to learn about subs: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/
Definitely worth giving them a listen. You might very well like them. They tend to be a bit forward sounding, so they stand out in big box stores. But they can be fatiguing, particularly if this is for nearfield usage. For most people, I would recommend the HSU HB-1 MK2s, Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SEs, or Chane A1rx-c for comparable quality class of speakers, but less potential to be fatiguing.
Focal definitely makes good home audio speakers and monitors. But don't assume they'll have the same sound as the car audio. And speaking of Focal, you might consider going for the Focal Chorus 806v demos:http://www.musicdirect.com/p-213598-focal-chorus-806v-bookshelf-speakers-ebony-demo.aspx Now that is a HECK of a deal

As for sub or not, well, how much bass do you need? Do you know how low you expect the speakers to go before rolling off in frequency response? That's the place to start to figure out your needs.

 
Something around 50hz and lower I'm sure is fine. The JBL, Focal, and Yamaha are all around that. I like the idea of getting monitors cause I like accurate detailed sound, I'm going to be sitting right in front of them, and they come with amps built in. Perhaps a good choice would be the Focal Alpha 50s, as they seem to be recomended by the manufacturer for use in extremely near field. 45hz is the bottom end on them and if I find I need a sub to fill out more, I can get it later. 
 
I'll see if I can find these somewhere to listen to. Thx! 

 

[cel4145]

Something around 50hz and lower I'm sure is fine. The JBL, Focal, and Yamaha are all around that. I like the idea of getting monitors cause I like accurate detailed sound, I'm going to be sitting right in front of them, and they come with amps built in. Perhaps a good choice would be the Focal Alpha 50s, as they seem to be recomended by the manufacturer for use in extremely near field. 45hz is the bottom end on them and if I find I need a sub to fill out more, I can get it later. 

I'll see if I can find these somewhere to listen to. Thx! 

Be sure to try to listen to the Focal Chorus, too. Those are the non-car audio speakers that Focal is most known for, not their powered monitors.

 

[Doku]

So I went down to the store to listen to the Focals, JBLs, Yamahas, and a few others. Was introduced to these bad boys: http://www.genelec.com/products/8040b/ . Out of my price range tho. Anyway, I decided to consider the options and went down to the Apple store to see what consumer grade stuff they had. Turns out, they had this awesome 2.1 system called Soundsticks III. Holy crap! Have you heard these things?! It's like, 8 speakers and one sub, all clear and stuff. Only $170! I mean wow, what was I thinking about dropping all that dough on these monitors. 
 
Anyway, here's my new rig. Check it out! 
 
 
 
 
J/K. :_D 
 
I just got the Focal Alpha 65s. I did listen to all those different monitors above. Based on size tho, I felt like the 6.5s on the Focals were giving me similar sound to the 8" ones and given my limited space, I decided to pay a bit more and get the Focals. My positioning is not ideal so I'm going to fix that and give them a 50+ hour break in this month. So far they sound great except I have to crouch down in my chair to get the sweet spot.