[gregorio]

1. Do you believe the current incompatibility with Amazon HD high-resolution music and Android is of a technical nature, one they are working to overcome? And by extension, Amazon is marketing their high-resolution music streaming service, and selling it to Android users via the Play Store, in good faith?

2. Do you believe the current incompatibility is due to calculated negligence on Amazon’s part? That they are intentionally not attempting to make their high-resolution content compatible with Android because they do not believe enough customers care about high-resolution audio? And by extension, intentionally defrauding Android customers by selling a high-resolution music streaming service via the Play Store, when they have no intention of providing high-resolution content?

1 & 2: Dude, what incompatibility, will android not play Amazon HD music?

I have no idea if Amazon are currently working on delivering HD music bit-perfectly or will in the future. That will depend on when/if they see enough of a marketing advantage in doing so, as I’ve already stated.

One of these answers is a conspiracy theory.

What I’ve just stated and have before is NOT a conspiracy theory, it’s simple marketing and common sense!

I have created no false narratives.

That’s very funny, because your very next sentence is a false narrative you’ve created:

You have stated multiple times that Amazon’s high-resolution music service does not function properly on Android because Amazon does not believe enough customers care about high-resolution music to justify making it function properly on Android.

I’ve never stated Amazon’s HD music service does not function properly on Android, let alone “stated multiple times”. You just made that up!!

Listen, if you want to believe in a conspiracy theory, at least own it. I mean, it’s 2022. This is the time, man. Lean into it.

Listen, if you want to invent your own conspiracy theories and then argue with yourself about them, knock yourself out. Maybe you should argue with yourself using private messaging though, it wouldn’t be quite so embarrassing.

G

 

[Earbones]

1 & 2: Dude, what incompatibility, will android not play Amazon HD music?

I have no idea if Amazon are currently working on delivering HD music bit-perfectly or will in the future. That will depend on when/if they see enough of a marketing advantage in doing so, as I’ve already stated.

What I’ve just stated and have before is NOT a conspiracy theory, it’s simple marketing and common sense!

That’s very funny, because your very next sentence is a false narrative you’ve created:

I’ve never stated Amazon’s HD music service does not function properly on Android, let alone “stated multiple times”. You just made that up!!

Listen, if you want to invent your own conspiracy theories and then argue with yourself about them, knock yourself out. Maybe you should argue with yourself using private messaging though, it wouldn’t be quite so embarrassing.

G

I said:

“It is a conspiracy theory to state that teething problems with Android are not simple technical issues that will eventually be ironed out (or perhaps already have workarounds), but some sort of calculated campaign by Amazon to sabotage the functionality of their own streaming service through willful negligence, because you believe, despite all their statements and actions to the contrary, that they do not care about high-resolution music.”

You quoted that specific passage and replied:

“Amazon released HD music well over 2 years ago, how is that a “teething problem” and again, how could Amazon not have “ironed it out” in over 2 years with all their resources, unless they do not see enough of a marketing advantage to it?”

Do you seriously not remember just posting the above, where you imply that Amazon could fix the high-resolution compatibility issues with Android if they wanted to, thanks to all their resources, but they do not see enough of a marketing advantage to it?

Listen man, you argued your point well, but at this point, I am not about to be the ___hole debating a guy battling some cognitive issues. And I’m not saying that in the whole Trump “sleepy Joe” way- I mean, this pandemic, family stress over holidays, just the general everything… people are forgetting things. My younger brother is still in high school, and has a memory like a goldfish lately. And my girlfriend’s mother? Good god. And I’d feel like a dick debating them too, so listen… It’s no biggie. Let’s call it a truce. Okay? Different people will have different views on things... Whatever, the whole thing was stupid. It’s all good.

 

[a-LeXx]

A comment from an iOS user:

Amazon's not providing bit-perfect playback is a feature, not a bug, and is the same on all OS systems, also on iOS. By default, iOS does not use any SRC, and also amazon music app was playing in 44.1/16 at a time there was only lossy music service available.

By the time of Music HD introduction, Amazon changed the strategy. They now use adaptive streaming, and the bitrate/compression is changed based on available bandwidth. To do this, Amazon's apps on any OS, Android, iOS, Windows and so on, is now selecting the highest bit rate of the DAC as default, and upsample/downsample everything to this frequency. It's done by the app itself, not by a subsystem of the OS. This is done to ensure that in case of b/w problems there are no clicks or disconnections during the playback, and change of the quality happens 'seemlesly' in case there is a sudden drop in the available b/w. In first implementations on iOS this upsamping was so buggy and slow, that it would even drive the HW to the limits, resulting in overheating, stutter and battery drain on older iOS devices. That has been fortunately fixed later, but it took Amazon around 3 months to do this.

Other services do not use adaptive bitrate, so, if the available streaming b/w for some reasons just goes down, the playback would start to stutter. Amazon will continue playing, but with the lower quality.

So, I think, everyone can ditch any hope Amazon Music will ever be bit perfect. It's not possible based on a way they implement the streaming in their apps. I ditched the hope as well, and moved on to Apple Music, which is bit perfect on iOS, at least...

 

[gregorio]

Do you seriously not remember just posting the above, where you imply that Amazon could fix the high-resolution compatibility issues with Android if they wanted to, thanks to all their resources, but they do not see enough of a marketing advantage to it?

I do remember posting what you quoted but I did NOT imply "that Amazon could fix the high-resolution compatibility issues...", in fact, I implied the opposite! I asked you: "Dude, what incompatibility, will android not play Amazon HD music?" You didn't answer the question and AFAIK, Android IS compatible with Amazon's HD Music service and if there really were compatibility issues Amazon would have ironed them out long ago. What I stated is that Amazon could provide bit-perfect HD Music if they really wanted to but unsurprisingly, don't see enough of a marketing advantage in doing so. Not providing bit-perfect HD Music is obviously NOT a "compatibility issue", if it were, then Amazon's HD Music service would not play on it's own hardware!

... I am not about to be the ___hole debating a guy battling some cognitive issues.

And I'm not about to be the __hole debating a guy battling with himself, over false narratives/implications that he himself has invented and then saying that others have cognitive issues?!!

G

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Thanks, that sounds interesting and plausible.
Do you have official source of this info, what upsampler they use as I did not see typical high CPU consumption from Amazon Music player on PC that is usually associated with players using some sort of upsampling.

Another interesting thing that unlike other bit-perfect players, you do not have option to choose WASAPI or ASIO version of the driver, which I am pretty sure are required for bit-perfect, so guess it's just MME (DirectSound) that goes through the kernel mixer, which can do upsampling for you (at low cost)

EDIT:
Found somewhat technical discussion on that
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audio-device-sample-rate-and-bit-depth.9587/

 

[a-LeXx]

Never mind…

 

[Earbones]

I do remember posting what you quoted but I did NOT imply "that Amazon could fix the high-resolution compatibility issues...", in fact, I implied the opposite! I asked you: "Dude, what incompatibility, will android not play Amazon HD music?" You didn't answer the question and AFAIK, Android IS compatible with Amazon's HD Music service and if there really were compatibility issues Amazon would have ironed them out long ago. What I stated is that Amazon could provide bit-perfect HD Music if they really wanted to but unsurprisingly, don't see enough of a marketing advantage in doing so. Not providing bit-perfect HD Music is obviously NOT a "compatibility issue", if it were, then Amazon's HD Music service would not play on it's own hardware!

And I'm not about to be the __hole debating a guy battling with himself, over false narratives/implications that he himself has invented and then saying that others have cognitive issues?!!

G

Uh-huh. So just to be clear, when you said:

“Amazon released HD music well over 2 years ago, how is that a “teething problem” and again, how could Amazon not have “ironed it out” in over 2 years with all their resources, unless they do not see enough of a marketing advantage to it?”

You were not stating that since Amazon HD has been operating for more than 2 years and still has technical issues with high resolution music that have not been fixed, even with all Amazon’s resources, then that means they choose not to fix it, because they don’t see the marketing advantage in doing so?

And again, to be clear, you maintain that you were in fact stating the opposite?

Okay.

 

[gregorio]

Uh-huh. So just to be clear, when you said:

“Amazon released HD music well over 2 years ago, how is that a “teething problem” and again, how could Amazon not have “ironed it out” in over 2 years with all their resources, unless they do not see enough of a marketing advantage to it?”

You were not stating that since Amazon HD has been operating for more than 2 years and still has technical issues with high resolution music that have not been fixed, even with all Amazon’s resources, then that means they choose not to fix it, because they don’t see the marketing advantage in doing so?

And again, to be clear, you maintain that you were in fact stating the opposite?

Okay.

Note the quote marks around "teething problem", that's because I was quoting YOU! Also note that I asked you and repeated the question "what incompatibility?". You are the one who keeps going on about the lack of bit-perfect delivery as some sort of massive technical issue/teething problem/incompatibility, while I've stated from the outset that Amazon obviously don't see it as such, because if they did, they would have provided it long ago. They are not going to provide bit-perfect unless/until they determine there's enough of a marketing benefit to doing so.

I'm not sure how many more times or how much clearer it's possible to be!

G

 

[Earbones]

Note the quote marks around "teething problem", that's because I was quoting YOU! Also note that I asked you and repeated the question "what incompatibility?". You are the one who keeps going on about the lack of bit-perfect delivery as some sort of massive technical issue/teething problem/incompatibility, while I've stated from the outset that Amazon obviously don't see it as such, because if they did, they would have provided it long ago. They are not going to provide bit-perfect unless/until they determine there's enough of a marketing benefit to doing so.

I'm not sure how many more times or how much clearer it's possible to be!

G

I don’t know how much clearer it can be either.

I called it a teething problem, ie bugs to be worked out and you said that it’s been two years and Amazon has plenty of money, so that implies they don’t really care enough to work the bugs out because they don’t believe enough people give a damn about bit-perfect high resolution music.

I disagree. I think Amazon believes people care about their high-resolution product. I think they believe that enough people care about it to justify attempting to make it work right. I do not believe that large companies like Amazon undertake large projects before they have done their market research, figured out how many people would be interested, in short, run the numbers. I believe Amazon ran the numbers (just like Apple did, and their high resolution product works perfectly* fyi) and arrived at the conclusion that it was worth it for them to offer a working high resolution product.

Furthermore, I believe that the compatibility issues with Android are not due to Amazon engineers willfully ignoring the issues because the brass has decided to change course and now believes that not enough people care about high resolution to justify the time/money/whatever spent fixing the app.

I believe it’s much more simple… I believe that for whatever reason, Amazon just hasn’t got a handle on it yet. Who knows why? It happens. Even with big companies. Why is Siri such a hot mess, while Alexa works so well? I mean the cheapest interface for Siri is what, a HomePod? Apple TV? Still a relatively big ticket item. And while she can tell a lot of knock-knock jokes, she’s pretty much useless for most things. And to make matters worse, there are different versions of her. Siri on your phone, for whatever reason, is far more compatible than on CarPlay. Alexa, on the other hand, is available on products that are often on sale for less than $30 (firestick) and is the same full-featured, far deeper product across all platforms.

Siri has been out far longer than Amazon high resolution music, and Apple has pretty deep pockets. Do you believe there is some grand conspiracy wherein Apple doesn’t believe people care enough to use an automated assistant to justify engineers working on Siri, so they willfully refuse to fix the issues and by extension sabotage their market share? Or do you think that for whatever reason, they just haven’t been able to get a hold of the project yet and implement it well? It happens.

I have no doubt that Siri will eventually be as full-featured as Alexa, and Amazon HD will eventually function as well as Apple Lossless. And I believe their respective engineers are hard at work trying to make that happen… even if it doesn’t appear that way sometimes.


*for the most part

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Aren't you guys tired yet?

 

[Earbones]

Aren't you guys tired yet?

It’s the end of the world, what else is there to do but argue with strangers who are wrong on the internet lol

 

[gregorio]

I disagree. I think Amazon believes people care about their high-resolution product.

But who are you disagreeing with? I also think Amazon believes enough people (wrongly) care about HR music, which is why they’ve provided such a service for 2+ years.

I think they believe that enough people care about it to justify attempting to make it work right.

It does “work right” AFAIK, it just doesn’t work bit-perfectly.

I do not believe that large companies like Amazon undertake large projects before they have done their market research, figured out how many people would be interested, in short, run the numbers. I believe Amazon ran the numbers (just like Apple did, and their high resolution product works perfectly* fyi) and arrived at the conclusion that it was worth it for them to offer a working high resolution product.

Again, I agree and Amazon DO offer a working HR product! Although I would add that in addition to the market research they also consider the actual facts.

Furthermore, I believe that the compatibility issues with Android are not due to Amazon engineers willfully ignoring the issues because the brass has decided to change course and now believes that not enough people care about high resolution to justify the time/money/whatever spent fixing the app.

Again, what “compatibility issues”? Amazon’s HD Music service IS compatible with Android! So how could Amazon’s engineers be “wilfully ignoring the issues”, when there is no compatibility issue?

I believe it’s much more simple… I believe that for whatever reason, Amazon just hasn’t got a handle on it yet.

But that’s not much more simple, it’s much more bizarre! If there really were an issue how could Amazon not get “a handle on it yet” 3 or so years after they they started testing their HD Music service and 2+ years after actually launching it?

You are contradicting yourself, don’t you think Amazon did some market research? I believe they looked at the facts + the market and judged there’s was not enough benefit in providing bit-perfect. @a-LeXx could well be right about Amazon seeing it as “feature” but whatever Amazon see it as, it’s obviously not a “compatibility issue”.

G

 

[Earbones]

But who are you disagreeing with? I also think Amazon believes enough people (wrongly) care about HR music, which is why they’ve provided such a service for 2+ years.

It does “work right” AFAIK, it just doesn’t work bit-perfectly.

Again, I agree and Amazon DO offer a working HR product! Although I would add that in addition to the market research they also consider the actual facts.

Again, what “compatibility issues”? Amazon’s HD Music service IS compatible with Android! So how could Amazon’s engineers be “wilfully ignoring the issues”, when there is no compatibility issue?

But that’s not much more simple, it’s much more bizarre! If there really were an issue how could Amazon not get “a handle on it yet” 3 or so years after they they started testing their HD Music service and 2+ years after actually launching it?

You are contradicting yourself, don’t you think Amazon did some market research? I believe they looked at the facts + the market and judged there’s was not enough benefit in providing bit-perfect. @a-LeXx could well be right about Amazon seeing it as “feature” but whatever Amazon see it as, it’s obviously not a “compatibility issue”.

G

This is pointless. You’re just going to continue shifting the goal posts as far as the statements you’ve made. You said what you said, you meant what you meant, and I’m no longer interested in debating whether or not the sky is blue with you.

Moving on, no, Amazon HD’s high-resolution music does not function as intended with the vast majority of Android-based DAP players, nor even with iterations of Android 10 and up, which made massive changes to Android SRC. Hence the point of this very thread. This has been gone over many, many times on these forums, recently by the Fiio account in the Fiio M11 Plus Ltd thread. Fiio states (as does every manufacturer rep I’ve spoken to) that the issue lies with Amazon’s implementation of their product.

But then again, seeing as you know far more about music licensing deals than a record executive, I imagine you also know far more about Amazon HD functionality with Android-based DAPs than an Android-based DAP manufacturer, so you probably don’t need to bother reading what any of them have to say on the matter.

 

[gregorio]

You’re just going to continue shifting the goal posts as far as the statements you’ve made.

What goal posts am I shifting? I’m saying the same as I have in all my previous posts.

Moving on, no, Amazon HD’s high-resolution music does not function as intended with the vast majority of Android-based DAP players, nor even with iterations of Android 10 and up, which made massive changes to Android SRC.

How is Amazon’s HD Music service not functioning as intended? This is effectively the same question as “what incompatibility?”, which you refuse to answer and this seems to be the root of your problem:

You seem to think that Amazon “intended” to supply their HD Music service bit-perfectly but can’t because of some issue they are unable to identify/fix after 3 years or so. BUT, how do you know what Amazon “intended”? How do you know that what Amazon “intended” is not exactly what they’ve delivered, a non bit-perfect HD Music service? Where does Amazon say or what law states that a HD Music service has to be bit-perfect?

G

 

[a-LeXx]

I can only re-iterate what I've said about iOS. iOS does not have SRC or any other kinds of forced bit rate conversions. And Amazon Music (pre-HD) was always playing at 44.1/16. After Introduction of Amazon Music HD and their new breed of Apps for that on iOS, Amazon player started to upsample everything to the highest bit-rate of the DAC. They obviously see this as a feature, not as a bug, because they are enforcing this, on purpose, even knowing this results in worse performance (possible overheating) on older iOS devices and higher battery drain.

And the only explanation for this behavior is their variable streaming quality, that has been first introduced with Music HD and that is not used by any other streaming service.

Of course they could make it much more flexible, by e.g. determining the content's sampling rate and then upsampling only if required when during streaming the available b/w suddenly goes down. But obviously they did not implement this, and obviously they don't care, because they are pretty sure upsampling cannot lower the quality and most consumers don't care and instead might think upsampling is better (which might be even true depending on a DAC and how upsampling is done in the SW).

Most DACs are internally upsampling anyway, and if this is done accurately in the SW, the results can be even better than when done by the DAC itself. Example: assuming you have a DAC with a slow roll-off filter, that can't be changed to anything else. One of the common species representing this behavior is e.g. a DFC. A slow roll-off filter will cause some attenuation at frequencies starting from around 17kHz, reaching around 4dB at 20kHz. For younger people still pretty audible. Well, there is no way to defeat it, it will always be like that with 44.1k content. However, if upsampled in the SW, filtering is obviously done in the SW as well, and will depend on implementation. The then upsampled, let's say 96k content, will be upsampled in the DAC (to a much higher frequency) and filtered again, but in this case the slow roll-off filter of the DAC will strike at the frequencies starting at around 45kHz, which will not hurt any human. This whole thing with any kind of upsampling is debatable anyway...