[dura]

I know I'm straying but another point that should be taken into account IMO is the state of mind of the listener; f.i. if I'm stressed or hurried or unwell or hungover or frustrated the sound of even most expensive equipment is unlikely to sooth me.
If I'm in a good humor, fit and rested and feel like listening to music even my tivoli radio sounds very pleasant.
These two factors seem to have limited interaction, they do not complement each other very much, in the sense that more expensive equipment is unlikely to completely compensate for a negative mood (after the first pride and joy of owning brandnew expensive stuff is gone).
So investing more and more in the hope to reach audio nirvana, where music always flows perfectly pleasing is not realistic IMO.

instead, if you want to enjoy your hifi to the max, a good investment might be this

(I got one and deeply loath it, but it does work if used properly).

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuma Zuerst. When you use a high resolution 'fones, it is worth it. One thing, however, you should keep in mind that, the entire system synergy/compatibility is equally important. Just because you spend a few grand, that does not guarantee the good sound for everyone.

I agree Kuma,

The source mentioned in OT is quite unimpressive...having some GS1's and an EarMax Pro with the source as a notebook is not good.
sort of like having a real nice sail boat, and having a crappy sail on it....sure it is working, but is your sail on par with your scooner??

Try a nice NAD, Cambridge, Rotel, or old Marantz CDP if a stand alone..if portable, try the Portable Forum, there are many sources to be had that will help comp those GS1's, I recommend the D-515 or the D-303 if a Sony Portable, if Denon score a DCP150, they are an appropriate fit for this type of detail..(if transportable rig is your bag here)

Note, I have a wicked upgraded sound card in my notebook, and have never used it as a dedicated source, not for RS-1's, GS1's or any other for that matter...sounds crappy, computers compute, and are not setup (on the motherboard) to handle all the power supply differences bt components in your PC, nor the noise or FR anomolies attributed to your sound card, and the evidence typically is found with the lack cross feed/talk between transducers, end result...mediocre sound...

You may as well listen with some SR-60's out of that PC

Hope this helps

 

[citroeniste]

The thoughts of the original poster are correct. It is really about time someone took a reality-based approach to headphone listening, as opposed to the noxious faith-based approach that seems so often to dominate.

Replacement headphone cables can make a difference, when they are used as equalizers (e.g. Ety ER4P vs. ER4S) or broken (I seem to break Senn 580 cables fairly often.) When those conditions do not apply, they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true.

Headphone amps can make a difference, when you have headphones that are hard to drive (e.g. the big Senns) or they have useful signal processing built in (e.g. HeadRoom's line). They can also make a difference, if one is a high quality tube/transistor/digital unit and the other is a poor-quality tube (often SET)/transistor/digital with insufficient output, noise, nonflat frequency response, or extremely high distortion. But beyond those kinds of things they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true.

In the modern era of digital music, it does not matter if your source is a $50 DVD player or an iPod (assuming AIFF/Apple Lossless files) or a ~$500 "mid fi player" or a pick-your-number-as-long-as-it-has-lots-of-zeros-in-it Ultra-Super-Mega-High-End wonder. Or, as is the case of my home system, a $115 Apple Airport Express getting signal remotely from a Mac. They almost never make a difference except when broken. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true.

It is true, as is generally accepted here and mentioned on this thread a few times, that headphones, like loudspeakers, unfortunately often sound better at higher price ranges, though personally I've not found a set more amenable to my musical and sonic preferences than the Senn HD-580/600/650 line, even after auditioning the AKG K1000 and Senn Orpheus. Others with different preferences will likely have other results.

 

[PeeeMeS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste The thoughts of the original poster are correct. It is really about time someone took a reality-based approach to headphone listening, as opposed to the noxious faith-based approach that seems so often to dominate. Replacement headphone cables can make a difference, when they are used as equalizers (e.g. Ety ER4P vs. ER4S) or broken (I seem to break Senn 580 cables fairly often.) When those conditions do not apply, they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. Headphone amps can make a difference, when you have headphones that are hard to drive (e.g. the big Senns) or they have useful signal processing built in (e.g. HeadRoom's line). They can also make a difference, if one is a high quality tube/transistor/digital unit and the other is a poor-quality P-P tube (often SET)/transistor/digital with insufficient output, noise, nonflat frequency response, or extremely high distortion. But beyond those kinds of things they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. In the modern era of digital music, it does not matter if your source is a $50 DVD player or an iPod (assuming AIFF/Apple Lossless files) or a ~$500 "mid fi player" or a pick-your-number-as-long-as-it-has-lots-of-zeros-in-it Ultra-Super-Mega-High-End wonder. Or, as is the case of my home system, a $115 Apple Airport Express getting signal remotely from a Mac. They almost never make a difference except when broken. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. It is true, as is generally accepted here and mentioned on this thread a few times, that headphones, like loudspeakers, unfortunately often sound better at higher price ranges, though personally I've not found a set more amenable to my musical and sonic preferences than the Senn HD-580/600/650 line, even after auditioning the AKG K1000 and Senn Orpheus. Others with different preferences will likely have other results.

Shall we make Team Reality... a Reality?

 

[SeptemberWasp]

Why not toss in my few pennys?

This is a hobby isn't it? The thing that allows for this site and others to have so many posts regarding it is because the "faith" based, listeners preference, individual opinions exist.

Does someone that collects stamps hope to one day find the perfect stamp? Terrible analogy, but still, do we have a unified goal? Assuming that all of our listening prefrences are different?

Maybe i'm way off?

If I didn't enjoy getting a new pair of headphones, amp, source, cable and having a good sit back, eyes closed, and probing the music I love on a different level, and learning in the process, then I don't know how long I would be here.

If its nagging you to see what a 3k source does over your preexisting, and you can financially rationalize it... then do it. If you have found from your own experiences and from others here that the cost difference isn't worth the experience, well, then don't... Why is it harder than that?

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste The thoughts of the original poster are correct. It is really about time someone took a reality-based approach to headphone listening, as opposed to the noxious faith-based approach that seems so often to dominate. Replacement headphone cables can make a difference, when they are used as equalizers (e.g. Ety ER4P vs. ER4S) or broken (I seem to break Senn 580 cables fairly often.) When those conditions do not apply, they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. Headphone amps can make a difference, when you have headphones that are hard to drive (e.g. the big Senns) or they have useful signal processing built in (e.g. HeadRoom's line). They can also make a difference, if one is a high quality tube/transistor/digital unit and the other is a poor-quality P-P tube (often SET)/transistor/digital with insufficient output, noise, nonflat frequency response, or extremely high distortion. But beyond those kinds of things they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. In the modern era of digital music, it does not matter if your source is a $50 DVD player or an iPod (assuming AIFF/Apple Lossless files) or a ~$500 "mid fi player" or a pick-your-number-as-long-as-it-has-lots-of-zeros-in-it Ultra-Super-Mega-High-End wonder. Or, as is the case of my home system, a $115 Apple Airport Express getting signal remotely from a Mac. They almost never make a difference except when broken. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. It is true, as is generally accepted here and mentioned on this thread a few times, that headphones, like loudspeakers, unfortunately often sound better at higher price ranges, though personally I've not found a set more amenable to my musical and sonic preferences than the Senn HD-580/600/650 line, even after auditioning the AKG K1000 and Senn Orpheus. Others with different preferences will likely have other results.

Here, Here!

Team reality sounds nice.

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste The thoughts of the original poster are correct. It is really about time someone took a reality-based approach to headphone listening, as opposed to the noxious faith-based approach that seems so often to dominate. Replacement headphone cables can make a difference, when they are used as equalizers (e.g. Ety ER4P vs. ER4S) or broken (I seem to break Senn 580 cables fairly often.) When those conditions do not apply, they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. Headphone amps can make a difference, when you have headphones that are hard to drive (e.g. the big Senns) or they have useful signal processing built in (e.g. HeadRoom's line). They can also make a difference, if one is a high quality tube/transistor/digital unit and the other is a poor-quality P-P tube (often SET)/transistor/digital with insufficient output, noise, nonflat frequency response, or extremely high distortion. But beyond those kinds of things they make no difference. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. In the modern era of digital music, it does not matter if your source is a $50 DVD player or an iPod (assuming AIFF/Apple Lossless files) or a ~$500 "mid fi player" or a pick-your-number-as-long-as-it-has-lots-of-zeros-in-it Ultra-Super-Mega-High-End wonder. Or, as is the case of my home system, a $115 Apple Airport Express getting signal remotely from a Mac. They almost never make a difference except when broken. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true. It is true, as is generally accepted here and mentioned on this thread a few times, that headphones, like loudspeakers, unfortunately often sound better at higher price ranges, though personally I've not found a set more amenable to my musical and sonic preferences than the Senn HD-580/600/650 line, even after auditioning the AKG K1000 and Senn Orpheus. Others with different preferences will likely have other results.

I may not find it difficult to believe that you don't hear any differences, as I believe many other people don't either. In those cases I say buy what you like and be happy. But to say that they make no difference period with all the long time audiophiles that state otherwise myself included is either remarkably piased or ridiculously ignorant. How could you possibly know what myself or other audiophiles are hearing? I've stated many times that differences in audio can be a learned progression. Some things are subtle, some not so subtle, but to tell me that I'm not hearing any real difference is the same as calling me delusional, which I'm sure some of my friends would agree with at times, but not in this sense. I don't taste many differences in different beers (not being a beer drinker), but many of my friends tell me that the differences are night and day. My palate is not trained to tell the difference, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. To believe we'd all be stupid enough to spend thousands on DACS, CDP's, Amps and the like, if we really weren't noticing a percievable change is a notion I can't take seriously.

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste In the modern era of digital music, it does not matter if your source is a $50 DVD player or an iPod (assuming AIFF/Apple Lossless files) or a ~$500 "mid fi player" or a pick-your-number-as-long-as-it-has-lots-of-zeros-in-it Ultra-Super-Mega-High-End wonder. Or, as is the case of my home system, a $115 Apple Airport Express getting signal remotely from a Mac. They almost never make a difference except when broken. That is reality, no matter what the faith-baseders (and the marketers who feed on them) wish were true.

citroeniste makes some valid points on replacement hp cables and hp amps, however, I do not agree with the above statement -let me elaborate.

Far Example:
If one thinks that the lossless or whatever fully non compressed version of Yellow Submarine Beatles is superior to or sounds as open, faithful, or accurate as the original release half speed MFSL on vinyl, sorry this simply untrue..
I have tried it both ways and various cans/rigs/sources/CD's, and do not see myself in the future going digital ever again, for some it makes no matter for their music to be this way, and quite frankly the lossless file format is wonderful, but it is just that a format...not music but information..
For others, puritans, and audiophiles alike, it is just another gimmick...why don't you just put all your songs in your silly tiny cell phone when the technology will allow it (presuming the release is in lossless),then you can talk on the horn, play your video game while surfing the web taking pictures of all the CD's you used to play, oh yeah while listening to some digital version of your once known analog signal...

I never assume anything, but can tell you from experience (because I wasted lots of money on some I-Pod Crapola, just not stoked on the convenience factor, trendiness, and overall operablility of the notebooks as sources or iPods or fill in the portable new age device of your choice..)
Call me old fashioned, redbook rules, vinyl is king.
no offense whatsoever, but when I read "doesn't matter if DVD player..) something was off with this statement...I can tell the difference using my crappy $200 DVD HD player this through my uber mediocre JBL 6.0 setup, with Northridge upgrades, and a decent SONY 6.1 receiver VS an old D-15 Discman...the Discman trounces the DVD player, because the DVD player is not geared to support or play music the way a dedicated transport is, IMO..

Just want to provide more a non-apple-biased opinion for the OP..
Seems like the portable forum nowadays should be called CNET.COM...more talk about PC's, iPods, and other computer related units which is cool.. And hey, the people that are ok with using a DVD player to play MUSIC, or use iPods and Notebooks/DTs apparently as transports...more power to you, glad to see you enjoying the music, that is what is all about..

Hi-Fi audio is not a myth nor a pledge to marketing...anyone that has been to a live concert, which should cover everyone, would know that there is a difference regarding sound quality with respect to your pysical orientation to the stage, this includes proximity, direction of your ears relative to the stage, etc...
so knowing/admitting the sound is better and the presentation is natural...not sure why people can not see the coorelation with high end audio?? Perhaps these people have never heard some home setups with floor pounders, a worthy Electro system (I.E Stax), or awesome Dynamic HP's through a balanced system, or hey even the SR-60's..
if you can't hear the difference, then save your money, buy more music...I wish I had those ears, I was cursed with the Golden Ear..as many here are..

call me old fashioned, prefer redbook, and vinyl rules all.
Digital killed Analog...


Many cheers, and no offense towards/directed to anyone, just love music..
criticism/points of view welcome though

 

[PeeeMeS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofiler citroeniste makes some valid points on replacement hp cables and hp amps, however, I do not agree with the above statement -let me elaborate. Far Example: If one thinks that the lossless or whatever fully non compressed version of Yellow Submarine Beatles is superior to or sounds as open, faithful, or accurate as the original release half speed MFSL on vinyl, sorry this simply untrue.. I have tried it both ways and various cans/rigs/sources/CD's, and do not see myself in the future going digital ever again, for some it makes no matter for their music to be this way, and quite frankly the lossless file format is wonderful, but it is just that a format...not music but information.. For others, puritans, and audiophiles alike, it is just another gimmick...why don't you just put all your songs in your silly tiny cell phone when the technology will allow it (presuming the release is in lossless),then you can talk on the horn, play your video game while surfing the web taking pictures of all the CD's you used to play, oh yeah while listening to some digital version of your once known analog signal... I never assume anything, but can tell you from experience (because I wasted lots of money on some I-Pod Crapola, just not stoked on the convenience factor, trendiness, and overall operablility of the notebooks as sources or iPods or fill in the portable new age device of your choice..) Call me old fashioned, redbook rules, vinyl is king. no offense whatsoever, but when I read "doesn't matter if DVD player..) something was off with this statement...I can tell the difference using my crappy $200 DVD HD player this through my uber mediocre JBL 6.0 setup, with Northridge upgrades, and a decent SONY 6.1 receiver VS an old D-15 Discman...the Discman trounces the DVD player, because the DVD player is not geared to support or play music the way a dedicated transport is, IMO.. Just want to provide more a non-apple-biased opinion for the OP.. Seems like the portable forum nowadays should be called CNET.COM...more talk about PC's, iPods, and other computer related units which is cool.. And hey, the people that are ok with using a DVD player to play MUSIC, or use iPods and Notebooks/DTs apparently as transports...more power to you, glad to see you enjoying the music, that is what is all about.. Hi-Fi audio is not a myth nor a pledge to marketing...anyone that has been to a live concert, which should cover everyone, would know that there is a difference regarding sound quality with respect to your pysical orientation to the stage, this includes proximity, direction of your ears relative to the stage, etc... so knowing/admitting the sound is better and the presentation is natural...not sure why people can not see the coorelation with high end audio?? Perhaps these people have never heard some home setups with floor pounders, a worthy Electro system (I.E Stax), or awesome Dynamic HP's through a balanced system, or hey even the SR-60's.. if you can't hear the difference, then save your money, buy more music...I wish I had those ears, I was cursed with the Golden Ear..as many here are.. call me old fashioned, prefer redbook, and vinyl rules all. Digital killed Analog... Many cheers, and no offense towards/directed to anyone, just love music.. criticism/points of view welcome though

Hopefully there will always be people like you
My major looks very promising

Cheers

 

[citroeniste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 How could you possibly know what myself or other audiophiles are hearing?

Because reality has shown us, through established levels of JND's (just noticeable differences) for different types of aberrations that are spread throughout the real (i.e. peer-reviewed, scientific) literature on audio and audiology. None of this stuff is nearly as complicated and voodoo-y as the faith-based'ers want to make it. I would go so far as to say that the only parts of an audio chain that are the least bit beyond modern measurement are the complex interactions of a loudspeaker (including a headphone or IEM) with the "room" (which may be only a small part of the ear canal, or a stadium, or anything between). And, of course, the mastering process, which I neglect only because it's typically well out of the audiophile's hands.

In addition, I know it because every time I've compared two components that weren't obviously flawed, when I matched levels and didn't know which one was in the signal chain, I've never been able to tell a difference. Nor has anyone else in over a quarter-century of trying. That's why when you bring up phrases like "double blind test" the snake oil merchants (as well as gullible so-called audiophiles suffering from Stockholm Syndrome) grow so apoplectic. When I've compared an unflawed component to a flawed one - e.g. an expensive conrad-johnson amp that sounded "warm" because it oh so thoughtfully rolled off the highs by about 3dB/octave starting at ~8kHz, and moved the stage to the right because the channel balance was off and unfixable due to the lack of level controls is the most recent example - I've always managed to hear differences. I've designed and built every speaker system in my home, and I can certainly hear the difference made by different values of parts, but take two different brands (say a Solen or Dayton poly cap and a Mundorf) that measure the same, and amazingly enough when you don't already know which one is playing they sound the same.

 

[citroeniste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofiler If one thinks that the lossless or whatever fully non compressed version of Yellow Submarine Beatles is superior to or sounds as open, faithful, or accurate as the original release half speed MFSL on vinyl, sorry this simply untrue..

Don't have that particular record, and Mo-Fi does (did?) a great job on the remastering process. Their Dark Side of the Moon Ultradisc II CD, in particular, is still superior to any other release I've heard. But obviously vinyl (a mechanical system that relies on physical contact) sounds different from CD. Hell, a record played today and once a week for the next year will sound different in June 2007 than it does today! That's why I limited my above discussion to digital sources. And why I paid a hi-fi salon good money to vacuum clean my 1200-odd records and play them on an esoteric turntable and cartridge combination whose cost I could never justify. A turntable that was in turn connected to an A/D converter feeding a PowerBook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofiler no offense whatsoever, but when I read "doesn't matter if DVD player..) something was off with this statement...I can tell the difference using my crappy $200 DVD HD player this through my uber mediocre JBL 6.0 setup, with Northridge upgrades, and a decent SONY 6.1 receiver VS an old D-15 Discman...the Discman trounces the DVD player, because the DVD player is not geared to support or play music the way a dedicated transport is, IMO..

Are you talking about a serious (i.e. levels matched and double blind) comparison or just fooling around? My strong suspicion is the latter.

For the record, with levels matched and no knowledge of which unit is actually playing I cannot hear the difference between my iMac/AirPort Express, my cheap Toshiba DVD player, or my Meridian 508.20 upgraded to 508.24 spec (why I don't know, on reflection). (The Meridian does a better job of handling scratched CDs than the Toshiba, but not as good a job as the iMac/iTunes does.) On a set of bespoke speakers using Tannoy Dual Concentric mains and JBL Pro subwoofers that's probably got about $15,000 worth of parts, cabinetry, and crossover components invested and are specifically for the locations in which they reside in the room they're in. Just like buying a bespoke suit from Anderson & Sheppard on Savile Row will result in a better-fitting garment than picking something up off the rack at Neiman's or Bergdorf and getting it altered, tailoring one's speakers from the ground up for a specific environment pays huge dividends. Could I tell the difference between my bespoke Tannoy-based mains and Tannoy's off-the-peg (but excellent) TD12? Absolutely, blindfolded and turned facing the back wall, in a few bars of music. So I focus on what matters and laugh at what doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofiler Just want to provide more a non-apple-biased opinion for the OP..

Why? Good music requires good design to do its best.

 

[allenf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste For the record, with levels matched and no knowledge of which unit is actually playing I cannot hear the difference between my iMac/AirPort Express, my cheap Toshiba DVD player, or my Meridian 508.20 upgraded to 508.24 spec

Bring them to my house and we can do a DBT If I pass (which I will, effortlessly) you gift me the Meridian.

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste Don't have that particular record, and Mo-Fi does (did?) a great job on the remastering process. Their Dark Side of the Moon Ultradisc II CD, in particular, is still superior to any other release I've heard. But obviously vinyl (a mechanical system that relies on physical contact) sounds different from CD. Hell, a record played today and once a week for the next year will sound different in June 2007 than it does today! That's why I limited my above discussion to digital sources. And why I paid a hi-fi salon good money to vacuum clean my 1200-odd records and play them on an esoteric turntable and cartridge combination whose cost I could never justify. A turntable that was in turn connected to an A/D converter feeding a PowerBook. Are you talking about a serious (i.e. levels matched and double blind) comparison or just fooling around? My strong suspicion is the latter. For the record, with levels matched and no knowledge of which unit is actually playing I cannot hear the difference between my iMac/AirPort Express, my cheap Toshiba DVD player, or my Meridian 508.20 upgraded to 508.24 spec (why I don't know, on reflection). (The Meridian does a better job of handling scratched CDs than the Toshiba, but not as good a job as the iMac/iTunes does.) On a set of bespoke speakers using Tannoy Dual Concentric mains and JBL Pro subwoofers that's probably got about $15,000 worth of parts, cabinetry, and crossover components invested and are specifically for the locations in which they reside in the room they're in. Just like buying a bespoke suit from Anderson & Sheppard on Savile Row will result in a better-fitting garment than picking something up off the rack at Neiman's or Bergdorf and getting it altered, tailoring one's speakers from the ground up for a specific environment pays huge dividends. Could I tell the difference between my bespoke Tannoy-based mains and Tannoy's off-the-peg (but excellent) TD12? Absolutely, blindfolded and turned facing the back wall, in a few bars of music. So I focus on what matters and laugh at what doesn't. Why? Good music requires good design to do its best.

citroeniste, I like your style...although we do not see eye to eye, you have lank respect in your communication and observation, and it shows in your posts...cheers..
BTW the tests were done double blind...and I picked the transport over the DVD player/iPod/PC every time (10 times each listening for ten minutes each)
here is/was my material utilized

DSOTM MOFI Gold CD
SOMETHING/ANYTHING MOFI UDI CD
THE WALL MOFI GOLD CD
FOR DUKE/HONOR THY FATHA 20BIT GOLD CD
WOODSTOCK MOFI SILVER CD (4 set)
BEATLES YELLOW SUBMARINE MOFI Half Speed on LP
BEATLES REVOLVER MOFI Half Speed on LP
BEATLES WHITE ALBUM MOFI Half Speed on LP
BEATLES SGT PPRS LNLY HRTS CLB BND MONO/MIX LP Parlaphone/German
STAX TEST CD

Source(s) used
Pioneer PD-F908
Marantz 63
Mark Levinson No.39 Custom
Cambridge 300se

Amps used
John G RA-1
Joe G HPA-1
EarMax Custom Vacuum Tube
Marantz Vintage SS

DAC(s) used
BM1
Micro DAC HR

Interconnects Used
RCA(s) Cardas
Straight Wire Line Out

Hope this helps..

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenf Bring them to my house and we can do a DBT If I pass (which I will, effortlessly) you gift me the Meridian.

I volunteer to do complete this task with the same reward if Allenf gets sick or is listening to his cans too long and misses his stop on the subway on the way to your pad

 

[citroeniste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenf Bring them to my house and we can do a DBT If I pass (which I will, effortlessly) you gift me the Meridian.

You pay travel costs (I'll reimburse you if you win, and if you like I'd put up a reasonable amount - $5000 ought to cover airfare, a few nights at a decent hotel, and food - in escrow if you prefer) and fax me documentation that you've put up fair compensation in escrow (say, 20,000 pounds, which would be a fun amount to take to my friends on Savile Row and Jermyn St. as well as covering a couple returns for fittings) to be awarded me if you lose, and I'm game. Seriously.

If you're so confident you have nothing to lose. I'll even pay to convert the 508.20 to Euro voltage.