[jsc3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Are you just speaking in the context of portable audio, or are you suggesting that in all audio systems, spending more than $50 on a top quality cable is a waste of money? If so, what is your experience that you base this one?

All audio systems, pretty much, and not including speaker cables (because of their physical size, but over $100 is still pretty pointless). Also, the $50 limit is general, not hard and fast.

My experience is with some decent equipment in the past: Legacy FOCUS speakers, Infinity RSIIb speakers, KEF-104, Klipsch Forte speakers, Adcom GFA-555 power amp, Hafler DH500 power amp, Yamaha M-85 power amp and Yamaha pre-amp, Harmon-Kardon Citation 22 power amp with Soundcraftsman pre-amp, SAE A-A502 power amp with SAE pre-amp, Yamaha CD player, Adcom CD player, NAD CD player. I listened to a LOT of other stuff before buying those. I have not been spending the money on electronics recently, as my goal these days is to make working completely optional first, at which point I will buy more gear to enjoy in my semi-retirement.

I found the most important things for my personal listening, in order were: great speakers, good amp with enough power to drive speakers cleanly, good source (CD player mostly). I had a lot of friends come over with the latest $200 interconnect and I couldn't hear a difference between that and my good quality cables that didn't cost a flipping fortune - and I think my hearing is better than average, based on experience and hearing tests.

I also have a decent understanding of electronics and physics. I studied electrical engineering before switching to computer science, and I thought about a minor in physics but didn't finish. I don't claim to be an pro in those fields (unlike computer science, which is how I make my living), but I certainly think I am a well-informed amateur.

$400 cables are snake oil, in my opinion. If you have a different opinion and want to spend your money on megabucks cables, that is certainly your right. I can accept that folks have a different opinion than me, but I certainly do have the opinion that spending $400 on cables is a pointless waste of money, personally. I will spend $4,000.00 for speakers, and $2,000.00 on amplifiers, but $400 on any single cable (or even $200) is just not money well spent. $400 for an iPod interconnect is just plain stupid, in my personal opinion. If you disagree, go ahead and spend your money - doesn't hurt me a bit!

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Are you just speaking in the context of portable audio, or are you suggesting that in all audio systems, spending more than $50 on a top quality cable is a waste of money? If so, what is your experience that you base this one?

Yes... 20 years in sound, a good part of that spent as a sound engineer for TV and CD releases. If you go into a studio, you'll find cables that aren't any different than what you get at Radio Shack. The only consideration is how rugged they are, so they won't develop shorts from being plugged and unplugged. The conductivity is considered a given. If a studio decides to make its own cables, it does that to save money, not for higher quality sound.

As the previous poster said, spend half your money on your speakers, then spend half of what's left on your amp. Use whatever's left on your source components. Big money spent on cables is a total waste of money. Any publication or retailer that tells you otherwise should be taken with a hefty grain of salt.

See ya
Steve

 

[PhilS]

I respect the opinions of people who have experience with the type of equipment where cable differences might be audible, and those who have other experience that lend credence to their opinions. Thus, bigshot and jsc3, I respect your views, even though we may disagree. I wanted to make sure that the opinions being expressed with not merely the type of viewpoints that are sometimes expressed on Head-Fi by those who have no relevant experience with the products at issue (cables, in this instance) or with high-end audio in general.

That being said, I respectfully disagree with your opinions, and also take issue with the somewhat strident and dogmatic manner in which you express them. The notion, for example, that a $200 cable cannot possibly make a difference, or that it is snake oil, or not money well spent is contradicted by evidence that a lot of people perceive performance improvements from upgraded cables. Surely not everyone is hearing things. I'm not suggesting that a $4000 cable is better than a $400 cable, or that more expensive cables always or even most of the time sound better, or that a $200 cable is worth the money to YOU, or that a $300 cable for an ipod makes sense, but I think it is highly presumptious to state emphatically and without qualification that all cables above a certain price point cannot possibly make an audible difference to others. It is also my opinion, that the more dogmatic the opinion expressed (e.g., "Big money spent on cables is a total waste of money," "I don't believe the difference is audible even to a dog"), the more questionable are the conclusions and advice of the poster. I may have my own opinions, but I try to keep an open mind and I am willing to learn. Sometimes the more you think you know, the less you actually know.

 

[Ross]

Agreed that cables can make a big difference, and that the price of some very expensive cables is justified. But not for the iPod.

It doesn't matter how good the cable is, it still has to go through the cheap metal in the dock or the cheap wire in the Sik Imp, and no high end cable can recover information lost before it enters the cable.

Even if someone could come up with a high end cable terminated so it would plug directly into the socket on the iPod, it would still not make the iPod a high end source, because ultimately the iPod sounds crap. The lightweight, colourless, smoothed-over sound of the iPod will never be high end, whatever cables you use, and however you encode your files.

 

[jsc3]

It's cool if you disagree with me, and I can accept that you don't like my strident tone. However, as you may have noticed, I have rather strong feelings regarding "high-end" cables. I honestly believe they are a con, pure and simple, and I really believe that even a dog couldn't hear the difference between a quality $50 copper interconnect and a $400 pure silver interconnect.

I would personally love to set up and run a blind test among reknowned audiophiles, pitting Radio Shack gold cables or something like that against "high-end" cables such as solid silver or whatever. If honest scientific double-blind testing of at least a dozen subjects (and preferably of hundreds or thousands) indicated that people could hear a difference (doesn't even have to be better, just different), then I would believe it. I might be wrong that nobody can hear a difference - I've been wrong before and I don't consider myself infallible.

That said, I think high-priced cables are the biggest con in audio, more of a fashion statement than an audible improvement. In particular, I don't think a $200 power cord can possibly sound better than a good $30.00 10 or 12 guage power cord, for power equipment drawing less than 20 amps.

Unless you can provide scientific proof (eg actual double blind studies) that show humans (or even dogs!) can hear a difference, you can't convince me that high priced cables are worth the money. I know I can't hear any difference, and as I said, based on experience and actual hearing tests, I know my hearing is above average. Based on my knowledge of the physics and biology involved, I don't believe anybody can hear the difference.

I am an opinionated person, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. I am willing to agree to disagree, and if buying expensive cables makes you happy, by all means do so and enjoy them. I can consider you silly for thinking they make an audible (as opposed to psychological) difference and you can consider me silly for thinking they don't. Don't take it personally - I have a friend who loves his high-end cables and while I disagree with him on that point, I value his opinion on many other subjects, and consider him to be the best IT manager I have ever worked with.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc3 That said, I think high-priced cables are the biggest con in audio, more of a fashion statement than an audible improvement. In particular, I don't think a $200 power cord can possibly sound better than a good $30.00 10 or 12 guage power cord, for power equipment drawing less than 20 amps.

I once held the exact same opinions you do, and have to admit that I often expressed them in similar fashion (i.e., in an "opiniionated" manner). I simply could not believe that any power cord or interconnect could possibly make an audible difference, and said so repeatedly on forums like these. Actual experience with a variety of cables in my headphone setup caused me to change my views. The two most significant were as follows:

1) I repeatedly experienced listener fatigue in my headphone setup after listening to anywhere from 1 1/2 to 2 CD's. I found the sound somewhat harsh, and a bit sibilant on certain recordings, to the point that, after about an hour or two, I no longer wanted to listen. I eventually switched out the power cords on my system -- not in an effort to address listener fatique, but merely because I needed an extra power cord in my HT system and someone suggested I try a certain power cord with my headphone amp and switch the stock cord from my amp to my HT. To my surprise, I found that when I switched out all the power cords in my headphone rig (I am ashamed to say that the retail cost or each cord was about $250, though I paid less) the harshness and digital sound of my system was completely removed. I now can listen for hours on end with no fatigue. In other words, I am not saying things like "the soundstage is wider," or the "bass is cleaner," though this may be true. I am saying that I used to find listening unpleasant after a while, and noticeable so, and now the system has a much smoother sound. I find it very hard to believe this is psychosomatic.

2) I was listening one night to my system and felt that it sounded overly bright and thin at the high end. I was kind of pissed, and couldn't figure out what was going on. I went to examine the connections on my system to see if anything was loose, and I realized that several days earlier, I had switched out my copper interconnect and replaced it with a silver interconnect. I had not listened until that night to it, and had forgotten about the switch due to being preoccupied with some business problems that arose suddenly. To my mind, there was an audible difference between the silver and copper interconnect, and I don't believe it was psychosomatice, as I had forgotten about the change.

Others have reported similar experiences to these. Perhpas we are indeed all crazy. I don't think so.

 

[mushu]

There is a difference between high quality cables, and overkill though. These, are just overkill. Not only is there a finite amount of quality the human ear can detect, but the ipod dock isn't made with the same quality connectors,so there's a huge bottleneck. They could make a better quality line out cable, but there's still the fact there are far superior sources than the ipod.

 

[yyoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross Agreed that cables can make a big difference, and that the price of some very expensive cables is justified. But not for the iPod. It doesn't matter how good the cable is, it still has to go through the cheap metal in the dock or the cheap wire in the Sik Imp, and no high end cable can recover information lost before it enters the cable.

But they can prevent FURTHER loss of information.

Quote:

Even if someone could come up with a high end cable terminated so it would plug directly into the socket on the iPod, it would still not make the iPod a high end source, because ultimately the iPod sounds crap.

Apparently you've never listened to an iPod through a high quality set-up. Though it may not meet your definition of high end, a good set-up, including cables, will appreciably enhance your enjoyment of the sound and you may be surprised just how good an iPod CAN sound. The Zu Pivot in my set-up made a noticeable improvement in sound, albeit I'm disappointed in the Zu Mobius (it made a change, but I don't know if I like the change).

 

[DEMIW]

I am really in the middle of the contest - cable quality affects or no the sound quality ? I think that it is qualified YES... But depends on so many variables and interactions that it normaly hard to detect.

Foe sure crystal cabels are using the ipod dock for line out... it would be diverse from the one who is using a SIK imp for portable use. But I don't think they are advocating its use for portable.

We could arrange a group buy with say 100 headfier with US$ 4 dollar each to buy one, and have tests between some spots, comparing to "normal" cables (Headroom, earcandy, Cardas, Oehlbach etc.) ... That could at least clarify the idea.

Does it sound crazy ?

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Are you just speaking in the context of portable audio, or are you suggesting that in all audio systems, spending more than $50 on a top quality cable is a waste of money? If so, what is your experience that you base this one?

Familiarity with the life of P.T. Barnum..?

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic Familiarity with the life of P.T. Barnum..?

He was not an audiophile as far as I know, and I also heard in any event that he had tin ears.

 

[Jon.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEMIW We could arrange a group buy with say 100 headfier with US$ 4 dollar each to buy one, and have tests between some spots, comparing to "normal" cables (Headroom, earcandy, Cardas, Oehlbach etc.) ... That could at least clarify the idea. Does it sound crazy ?

Who gets to keep the cable?

 

[jsc3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic Familiarity with the life of P.T. Barnum..? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)

I am going to stop after this one - this discussion really belongs in the cables and tweaks forums as we have gotten completely off the topic of portable audio.

I really want to design and build a line of pure silver directional audiophile quality USB and FireWire cables - maybe I can even branch out into IDE cables for those who want to open their DAPs and tweak the internal cables. I am willing to bet there would be many people would swear they can hear a difference.

The funny thing is, signals on a digital cable can only have one of two values - zero or one. Whichever voltage level the signal is closest to will determine which value gets assigned, so as long as the cable is designed within certain tolerances, the digital end result will be the same whether the cable is made of aluminum or pure oxygen free gold plated unobtanium.

 

[Ross]

Quote:

Apparently you've never listened to an iPod through a high quality set-up. Though it may not meet your definition of high end, a good set-up, including cables, will appreciably enhance your enjoyment of the sound and you may be surprised just how good an iPod CAN sound.

Apparently you make assumptions about what someone has or has not listened to with no basis in reality. In fact I have heard an iPod through a high end stereo (mine) and it still sounds like a portable MP3 player. The iPod is okay for a portable player with adequate sound and a nice user interface, but its sound quality is not as good as my old Panasonic PCDP or my old Sony MD player or even my newer iRiver H340. In other words, encoding in WAV and throwing an expensive cable at the iPod is never going to make it sound like an adequate source except for casual listening on low end systems.

 

[yyoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross In fact I have heard an iPod through a high end stereo (mine) and it still sounds like a portable MP3 player.

I'm open-minded, so tell me about your setup. What gen iPod? Line-out vs. headphone jack? Cables? Stereo? Speakers? Codec and compression rate?

I won't dispute that an iPod is not going to sound as good as a typical high end source, but to describe its sound quality as "crap" is silly.