[freakydrew]

does burning in help with sibilance at all? or does it make it worse?

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDBacklash /img/forum/go_quote.gif He is wrong about the sibilance but he is not wrong about the dynamic range. Stop injecting your beliefs into posts outside the 16/24bit threads. @OP A cure would be to roll-off the highs gently. I wouldnt advise it personally, but you might enjoy it.

I am not injecting my beliefs but stating fact, I was also responding to someone inquiring specifically about the relationship of sibilance with bit depth rather than just injecting it into the thread.

Would you care to explain why you believe that increased dynamic range (bit depth) makes any difference to sibilance?

Also, rolling off the highs will not help as sibilance in not in the highs but lower down between 2kHz and 5kHz. You would have to roll-off more than the highs to get rid of sibilance and this would have a dramatic and negative impact on sound quality.

G

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not injecting my beliefs but stating fact, I was also responding to someone inquiring specifically about the relationship of sibilance with bit depth rather than just injecting it into the thread. Would you care to explain why you believe that increased dynamic range (bit depth) makes any difference to sibilance? Also, rolling off the highs will not help as sibilance in not in the highs but lower down between 2kHz and 5kHz. You would have to roll-off more than the highs to get rid of sibilance and this would have a dramatic and negative impact on sound quality. G

Well... the sibilance can be all over the spectrum, and the first impression when you will notice the most sibilance will be on the voice and the high frequencies when you have more open space. and yes the roll-off can change the whole dynamic balance of the track , and espescailly the energy in the music...

 

[Jewmeister]

I'm just a first year eecs major too lazy to recheck the facts, sorry guys no intention of stirring up trouble, "correct me if I' wrong" right?

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well... the sibilance can be all over the spectrum, and the first impression when you will notice the most sibilance will be on the voice and the high frequencies when you have more open space.

In my experience sibilance is not all over the spectrum, the lowest I have ever found it is at 2kHz. I certainly can't imagine finding sibilance 1, 2 or 3 octaves lower than 2k. You do realise that sibilance is the hiss sound you get when pronouncing consonents like "s" and "t"? I once had an actress who had sibilance up to 11k but this is the exception rather than the rule. 8k is more commonly the higher limit and 5k a good average. Of course it varies from person to person.

For the end user, there is little you can do except EQ out some 5kHz or so, although this is obviously also going to affect all the other elements in your track as well. However, if you notice sibilance as a common problem on many of your tracks then the chances are your system is boosting frequencies around 5k, so removing some 5k using EQ might make your system sound more balanced anyway. The difficulty of course is that you have to be sure the sibilance you are hearing is caused by your system and not on the recording and you have to identify the particular frequency range which is affected.

G

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif In my experience sibilance is not all over the spectrum, the lowest I have ever found it is at 2kHz. I certainly can't imagine finding sibilance 1, 2 or 3 octaves lower than 2k. You do realise that sibilance is the hiss sound you get when pronouncing consonents like "s" and "t"? I once had an actress who had sibilance up to 11k but this is the exception rather than the rule. 8k is more commonly the higher limit and 5k a good average. Of course it varies from person to person. For the end user, there is little you can do except EQ out some 5kHz or so, although this is obviously also going to affect all the other elements in your track as well. However, if you notice sibilance as a common problem on many of your tracks then the chances are your system is boosting frequencies around 5k, so removing some 5k using EQ might make your system sound more balanced anyway. The difficulty of course is that you have to be sure the sibilance you are hearing is caused by your system and not on the recording and you have to identify the particular frequency range which is affected. G

Sibilance is not only the hiss sound...hiss is just one of bad guys that you don't want in your mix/music. Sibilance is all the unwanted noises like, harsh “s” sounds, hum and buzzes / ground noises, can be bad input/output connections on any analog/digital devices. Or a bass distortion caused by wrong EQ and compression in the mix or in the mastering process. Sometimes even bass guitar or even mixers can cause sibilance, And this why is recommended to use DI box, also a bad power cable can cause problems.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sibilance is all the unwanted noises like, harsh “s” sounds, hum and buzzes / ground noises, can be bad input/output connections on any analog/digital devices.

No it is not. Sibilance is the harsh vocal "s" "sh" "t" etc. It is vocal only.

Here is the definition of sibilant from our handy head-fi glossary:
Sibilant - "Essy" Exaggerated "s" and "sh" sounds in singing, caused by a rise in the response around 6 to 10 kHz. Often heard on radio.

Please don't redefine the vocabulary. The buzzing from a bass guitar amp or a bad connection is not sibilance. Call it buzzing, call it hum, call it noise, but don't call it sibilance.

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ham Sandwich /img/forum/go_quote.gif No it is not. Sibilance is the harsh vocal "s" "sh" "t" etc. It is vocal only. Here is the definition of sibilant from our handy head-fi glossary: Sibilant - "Essy" Exaggerated "s" and "sh" sounds in singing, caused by a rise in the response around 6 to 10 kHz. Often heard on radio. Please don't redefine the vocabulary. The buzzing from a bass guitar amp or a bad connection is not sibilance. Call it buzzing, call it hum, call it noise, but don't call it sibilance.

No problem, you can go strictly by the definition if you feel better about it. I just wasn't sure that oqvist is having problems with harsh “s” sound in one track, specifically. If it's coming from different music sources or equipment, it's probably not going to be the sibilance the Head-fi definition. That's why I mentioned all the other options, so he can determine the source of his problem (or anyone else with unwanted noises who needs to identify the source).

As far as I'm concerned about the word sibilance, it can be anything emphasized in the high frequencies, like high hats, metal percussion, etc. whatever has a very high pitch...especially with good equipment that goes above 20 kHz, it's more easy to detect the high frequencies that can be emphasized and annoying. BTW, some of the headphone amps easily go beyond 20kHz, so this is another fact that needs to be considered when using the word sibilance.

 

[moonboy403]

I would have to agree with Ham Sandwich too according to Webster dictionary.

 

[CDBacklash]

I do believe it applies to crash cymbals as well above 10khz.
@gregorio I never said dynamic range has anything to do with sibilance.

 

[terrymx]

Some material can amplify a signal so it could even make a frequency sharper. Long exposure to loud high frequency can causes ear damages faster, it's also the thing that really stir up one's tinitus fast. I have become so sensitive to high frequency that I use EQ to lower the higher frequencies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freakydrew /img/forum/go_quote.gif does burning in help with sibilance at all? or does it make it worse?

It may smooth out the sound a bit, but in the end it come down to how that specific headphone sound. Many Sennheiser headphone tend to have a warm non-sharp sound that I've begin to prefer them.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif No problem, you can go strictly by the definition if you feel better about it. I just wasn't sure that oqvist is having problems with harsh “s” sound in one track, specifically. If it's coming from different music sources or equipment, it's probably not going to be the sibilance the Head-fi definition. That's why I mentioned all the other options, so he can determine the source of his problem (or anyone else with unwanted noises who needs to identify the source). As far as I'm concerned about the word sibilance, it can be anything emphasized in the high frequencies, like high hats, metal percussion, etc. whatever has a very high pitch...especially with good equipment that goes above 20 kHz, it's more easy to detect the high frequencies that can be emphasized and annoying. BTW, some of the headphone amps easily go beyond 20kHz, so this is another fact that needs to be considered when using the word sibilance.

No Acix! Although I would question the 6k-10k range stated in the Head-fi definition, in essence head-fi's definition of Sibilance is the same as the definition used by the rest of the audio world. Sibilance has a very specific meaning and can only be caused by the human voice and when pronouncing certain consonants like "s" or "sh". Sibilance is not restricted to the English language as these sounds occur in many languages.

If you are looking for a general term for all unwanted audio faults or problems the word to use would be "artefact". Sibilance is a very specific type of artefact.

G

 

[fordgtlover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif No Acix! Although I would question the 6k-10k range stated in the Head-fi definition, in essence head-fi's definition of Sibilance is the same as the definition used by the rest of the audio world. Sibilance has a very specific meaning and can only be caused by the human voice and when pronouncing certain consonants like "s" or "sh". Sibilance is not restricted to the English language as these sounds occur in many languages. If you are looking for a general term for all unwanted audio faults or problems the word to use would be "artefact". Sibilance is a very specific type of artefact. G

While I have no desire to defend in anyway the glossary that I have compiled, the definitions were sourced from other places. Like most of the words there was no single consensus definition that I could find.

Variants for the definition of sibilance include:
Energy from a voice centred around 7 kHz caused by pronouncing "s", "sh" or "ch" sounds.
Glossary of Technical Terms for Sound and PA Engineers - Dictionary of Electronic Terminology - A to Z listing


Sibilance lies in frequencies anywhere between 2 kHz-10 kHz, depending on the individual.
De-essing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd be happy to change the definition in the glossary if deemed reasonable. As always, I'm happy to get feedback and improve it.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif While I have no desire to defend in anyway the glossary that I have compiled, the definitions were sourced from other places. Like most of the words there was no single consensus definition that I could find. Variants for the definition of sibilance include: Energy from a voice centred around 7 kHz caused by pronouncing "s", "sh" or "ch" sounds. Glossary of Technical Terms for Sound and PA Engineers - Dictionary of Electronic Terminology - A to Z listing Sibilance lies in frequencies anywhere between 2 kHz-10 kHz, depending on the individual. De-essing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'd be happy to change the definition in the glossary if deemed reasonable. As always, I'm happy to get feedback and improve it.

There is nothing seriously wrong with your definition. I've worked with vocals in music and dialogue for TV and film for a number of years and sibilance is often a problem. There are no hard and fast rules as such, because each actor's or singer's voice has different sonic characteristics. One actor may have sibilance between 2kHz and 4kHz and another may be between 4kHz and 9kHz. The range of frequencies affected with sibilance and the frequency at which it starts varies, it can even vary depending on whether the actor is whispering or shouting, ect. However, if you can find the mid frequency, say 3kHz with the actor who has sibilance between 2k and 4k and remove a few dB at this mid point, the sibilance can be made to appear less noticeable. Of course, I have the benefit of the individual channels of sound to work with, the consumer can only EQ the track as a whole and this may have a negative impact on SQ.

So, you could change your definition a little to try and incorporate these facts but I'm not sure if that would be too much information for your average head-fier?

G

 

[fordgtlover]

^

Cheers. I'll have a go at a revised definition including the information you have included here.