Should you color your DAC or your amp?
Dec 9, 2021 at 9:40 PM Post #256 of 296

IDrinkLava

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I know, what is your point here ? Good mastering is a skill no matter which format it is. Music today is mainly mastered on the go or even done through auto-mastering software to cut costs. This usually ends in unexciting and compressed sound. The amount of released music is huge, but the quality is lagging behind

Yello - Great mission(1983), Martin Denny - Exotica(1957), Eden Ahbez Full moon(1960) just a few examples how good old music can sound no matter it's age and old tech. Many things to learn for modern releases. unfortunately good mastering engineers are becoming very expensive and rarity in music business.
My point is that there is no point to buying modern vinyls over digital .FLAC downloads or CDs because they're all using literally the same masters. Purchasing vinyl might've been valid in the 90s during the dawn of the Loudness War, but now there really isn't any valid reason to do so outside of audiophile superstitions of warmer analog sound. In fact, your subwoofer will be going to waste because there's no data under 50Hz.
 
Dec 10, 2021 at 3:00 AM Post #257 of 296

DuncanDirkDick

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My point is that there is no point to buying modern vinyls over digital .FLAC downloads or CDs because they're all using literally the same masters. Purchasing vinyl might've been valid in the 90s during the dawn of the Loudness War, but now there really isn't any valid reason to do so outside of audiophile superstitions of warmer analog sound. In fact, your subwoofer will be going to waste because there's no data under 50Hz.
From a SQ point of view, true. I still like the vinyl listening experience. On digital, I rarely listen to a whole album. I tend to look around, search for the next song... On vinyl, I just listen, get myself a beer and enjoy.
 
Dec 10, 2021 at 4:33 AM Post #258 of 296

gregorio

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Music today is mainly mastered on the go or even done through auto-mastering software to cut costs. This usually ends in unexciting and compressed sound. The amount of released music is huge, but the quality is lagging behind
Music today is mainly not mastered at all. That’s because the internet democratised music distribution and for 20 years or so anyone with free audio software can create music mixes, distribute them online and many of them don’t even know what mastering is, let alone are willing to spend money on it.

If you’re talking about represented artists, their recordings are mastered as they always were. Some of the auto-mastering services are fairly popular but are aimed at budget amateur/hobbyist music creators.
… unfortunately good mastering engineers are becoming very expensive and rarity in music business.
Do you have any evidence for that assertion?

The good mastering engineers are generally not “becoming very expensive”, if anything, overall their prices have reduced. This reflects the fact that for many years consumers have demanded poorer quality recordings/masters. While this is the overall trend, there are some exceptions.

G
 
Dec 10, 2021 at 4:38 PM Post #259 of 296

hakunamakaka

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My point is that there is no point to buying modern vinyls over digital .FLAC downloads or CDs because they're all using literally the same masters. Purchasing vinyl might've been valid in the 90s during the dawn of the Loudness War, but now there really isn't any valid reason to do so outside of audiophile superstitions of warmer analog sound. In fact, your subwoofer will be going to waste because there's no data under 50Hz.

You don’t know how my TT sounds and what I listen on it. I couldn’t care less for all these flacs/loosless formats . Content and how it is produced is more important to me. You can go on further on how vinyl sucks, but even with modern music on acoustic&vocal centric songs I’ll take vinyl over digital

I find well mastered releases that were done 50 years ago which would put to shame majority of modern music today. As gregorio stated it seems that music is cooked on the go as consumers are happy with lower quality.

if you look into some big names like Adele/norah jones you will know that you will get a good sounding album, but in general i find older music done with more effort.
 
Dec 10, 2021 at 8:46 PM Post #260 of 296

IDrinkLava

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You can go on further on how vinyl sucks,
Everything you're posting is just your own subjective opinion being presented as fact. I thought this was "Sound Science", not "Sound Subjectivity". It is objectively true that the same masters are used for modern vinyls, CDs, and lossless digital downloads. Your own preferences cannot change that fact.
 
Dec 10, 2021 at 10:16 PM Post #261 of 296

Davesrose

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My point is that there is no point to buying modern vinyls over digital .FLAC downloads or CDs because they're all using literally the same masters. Purchasing vinyl might've been valid in the 90s during the dawn of the Loudness War, but now there really isn't any valid reason to do so outside of audiophile superstitions of warmer analog sound. In fact, your subwoofer will be going to waste because there's no data under 50Hz.
I think the phenominon of recent record sales has to do with the perception of it being a collectible item vs the convenience of digital. I now have Apple Music with my cell plan: it's interesting to listen through my home theater speakers to some albums that have been remixed to Dolby Atmos (I also have blu-ray concerts in 5.1 that really take full use of the subwoofer). I have bought a handful of new vinyl records because of the interesting features they have: such as holograms. I have a library of music ranging from old records, CDs, SACDs, blu-ray, and digital files. Maybe young people are now getting into vinyl because of the physicality of a record: you get large cover art and an insert for a band you might follow. As a videophile, I think it's a shame that I can't seem to do much window shopping for blu-rays at my local Target or Best Buy now. They went from several aisles of DVDs/blu-rays to now just having a few shelves. Meanwhile, vinyl records are expanding in a music section. I don't know how much your average consumer is thinking that vinyl is superior audiowise: if they prefer the analog distortions/warmth, if investing in a TT is the first hi-fi experience they've had, or if it does boil down to that tangible asset of a record.
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 3:32 AM Post #262 of 296

bigshot

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I can see liking records for music from the past that never made it to CD. It's definitely a great format for a wide range of different kinds of music. But LPs don't have better sound better than CDs, and there's good and bad mastering in both LPs and CDs. Les Baxter and Martin Denny are very well served on CD. I have a great sounding CD of Ahbez's Nature Boy, but it may be out of print now. Lounge music was really big in the 90s. There were a lot of both big and small labels releasing great sounding stuff in that genre. You'd probably have to find them in the used bin now. The only Yello albums I have are old LPs on Ralph Records. But I think those and Renaldo and the Loaf have been released on CD since. The new Ralph remasters sound a million times better than the old LPs did. The latest pREServed Residents reissues are fantastic.

You can't generalize and say that LPs sound better, because they don't. It all depends on the album. I can name scores of albums that sound better on CD than they ever did on vinyl.
 
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Dec 11, 2021 at 4:36 AM Post #263 of 296

gregorio

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I find well mastered releases that were done 50 years ago which would put to shame majority of modern music today.
Again, 50 years ago, the only way to distribute music you created was with some kind of record label deal. It incurred significant cost to make recordings and distribute LPs and cassettes and therefore they were always recorded and mastered professionally. Today it can effectively cost nothing at all, just free software, an internet connection and a free account on YouTube or SoundCloud for example. Despite this however, there were still a lot of pretty dreadful records released in the 1970s, you simply don’t know about them because they sank without a trace.
As gregorio stated it seems that music is cooked on the go as consumers are happy with lower quality.
But I didn’t state that! Some music is recorded, mastered and distributed at a far higher quality than was ever the case in the 1970s.

And, I did NOT state that consumers are happy with lower quality, I stated they demanded lower quality, a different thing entirely! 20 odd years ago, consumers started to demand commercial music for free or for just a few cents a track. With lower returns, the artists and labels were forced to reduce costs and less time/money spent in world class studios meant a reduction in quality. I’m sure, given the choice, consumers would have been happier with both higher quality AND only paying a few cents for it but as that option is, of course generally impractical, then effectively they have demanded lower quality.

G
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 5:48 AM Post #264 of 296

hakunamakaka

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Everything you're posting is just your own subjective opinion being presented as fact. I thought this was "Sound Science", not "Sound Subjectivity". It is objectively true that the same masters are used for modern vinyls, CDs, and lossless digital downloads. Your own preferences cannot change that fact.

. I just preffer the coloring of TT setup with certain music. This is what topic relates to. Perception that vinyl sounds bad is incorrect, but I have never stated that it is superior to digital, though u still keep repeating same stuff…

Well mastered stuff sounds very good on vinyl. there plenty of digital recordings ripped from vinyl era to take as an examples. I don’t think LP are superior to digital, but I buy them for other reasons
 
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Dec 11, 2021 at 6:13 AM Post #265 of 296

FYFL

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I don't know how much your average consumer is thinking that vinyl is superior audiowise: if they prefer the analog distortions/warmth, if investing in a TT is the first hi-fi experience they've had, or if it does boil down to that tangible asset of a record.
Average consumer still things Bose is the pinnacle of sound reproduction.
However, I had plenty of what you called “average consumers” over my house and have them listen to vinyl. And all of them had exactly the same reaction. Meaning, they had no idea that vinyl can sound so good.
Surprisingly, those with some musical background and relatives who do work in audio production business, they all own and enjoy vinyl.
Not trying to present an argument just a simple facts I noticed from my “primitive” inner circles.
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 6:16 AM Post #266 of 296

hakunamakaka

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I can see liking records for music from the past that never made it to CD. It's definitely a great format for a wide range of different kinds of music. But LPs don't have better sound better than CDs, and there's good and bad mastering in both LPs and CDs. Les Baxter and Martin Denny are very well served on CD. I have a great sounding CD of Ahbez's Nature Boy, but it may be out of print now. Lounge music was really big in the 90s. There were a lot of both big and small labels releasing great sounding stuff in that genre. You'd probably have to find them in the used bin now. The only Yello albums I have are old LPs on Ralph Records. But I think those and Renaldo and the Loaf have been released on CD since. The new Ralph remasters sound a million times better than the old LPs did. The latest pREServed Residents reissues are fantastic.

You can't generalize and say that LPs sound better, because they don't. It all depends on the album. I can name scores of albums that sound better on CD than they ever did on vinyl.

Yes remastered version would beat original LP release, but remasters are rarely done
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 7:33 AM Post #267 of 296

gregorio

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I just preffer the coloring of TT setup with certain music.
Which as @IDrinkLava stated is your subjective opinion, NOT fact!
This is what topic relates to.
Of course it’s not! The topic is posted in Sound Science and does NOT mention subjective opinion. And it does NOT mention TTs, it asks about DACs and amps.
Perception that vinyl sounds bad is incorrect, but I have never stated that it is superior to digital, though u still keep repeating same stuff…
No one has stated vinyl sounds bad, just that it’s inferior to digital. So what are you arguing about?
[1] Well mastered stuff sounds very good on vinyl. [2] there plenty of digital recordings ripped from vinyl era which blows out modern music
1. Yes but well mastered stuff sounds even better on digital.

2. And, there are plenty of modern (and not so modern) digital recordings that “blows out” older era music recordings.
However, I had plenty of what you called “average consumers” over my house and have them listen to vinyl. And all of them had exactly the same reaction. Meaning, they had no idea that vinyl can sound so good.
A dozen or even a few dozen is not “plenty”. However, no one is disputing that vinyl can sound good and some younger consumers may not realise how good the pinnacle of analogue music distribution was. That still does not change the fact that digital is even higher quality and at a fraction of the cost.
Surprisingly, those with some musical background and relatives who do work in audio production business, they all own and enjoy vinyl.
Not trying to present an argument just a simple facts I noticed from my “primitive” inner circles.
But that’s NOT “simple facts”, it’s just an observation of a particular “inner circle”. I’ve worked my whole adult life in the music and audio production business, have known thousands of people with that background and only a very tiny minority own vinyl. However, that is still just an observation and NOT a “simple facts”! The actual fact was quoted earlier in this thread, a controlled blind study of musicians between vinyl and digital. As well as countless other controlled tests done over the years since digital audio was invented.

Your “simple facts” are contradicted by the actual facts! Not to mention the obvious “simple fact” that digital audio (CDs) very quickly replaced LPs as the hi-fi format of choice, even in the audiophile world.

G
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 7:44 AM Post #268 of 296

hakunamakaka

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Which as @IDrinkLava stated is your subjective opinion, NOT fact!

Of course it’s not! The topic is posted in Sound Science and does NOT mention subjective opinion. And it does NOT mention TTs, it asks about DACs and amps.

No one has stated vinyl sounds bad, just that it’s inferior to digital. So what are you arguing about?

1. Yes but well mastered stuff sounds even better on digital.

2. And, there are plenty of modern (and not so modern) digital recordings that “blows out” older era music recordings.

A dozen or even a few dozen is not “plenty”. However, no one is disputing that vinyl can sound good and some younger consumers may not realise how good the pinnacle of analogue music distribution was. That still does not change the fact that digital is even higher quality and at a fraction of the cost.

But that’s NOT “simple facts”, it’s just an observation of a particular “inner circle”. I’ve worked my whole adult life in the music and audio production business, have known thousands of people with that background and only a very tiny minority own vinyl. However, that is still just an observation and NOT a “simple facts”! The actual fact was quoted earlier in this thread, a controlled blind study of musicians between vinyl and digital. As well as countless other controlled tests done over the years since digital audio was invented.

Your “simple facts” are contradicted by the actual facts! Not to mention the obvious “simple fact” that digital audio (CDs) very quickly replaced LPs as the hi-fi format of choice, even in the audiophile world.

G
U forget to turn off caps lock too often
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 7:47 AM Post #269 of 296

gregorio

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U forget to turn off caps lock too often
That’s because you too often forget this is the Sound Science forum and not your personal preference forum and that this thread is not about vinyl!

G
 
Dec 11, 2021 at 7:54 AM Post #270 of 296

hakunamakaka

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That’s because you too often forget this is the Sound Science forum and not your personal preference forum and that this thread is not about vinyl!

G

You are the ones that started debate with digital superiority over the LP out of thin air.
 

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