Should be so simple... 3 LED's powered via 9v battery
Apr 7, 2009 at 6:30 PM Post #16 of 31
Yeah, I am using a webcam with the IR filter removed to test it.

So if I'm getting basically 9V across each LED... then they've all failed? Would that be possible if the resistor failed like if I heated it too much while soldering?

Edit: BTW thanks for all the help
 
Apr 7, 2009 at 6:35 PM Post #17 of 31
Sorry if I didn't say it in my first post. Yes, I'm using IR LED's, and I know I can't see them on personally, but that's why I'm using a webcam with the IR filter removed to test it.
 
Apr 7, 2009 at 6:40 PM Post #18 of 31
Could have just as easily burnt out an LED while soldering too.

And I seriously recommend a parallel circuit. And maybe get yourself a breadboard or something so you don't have to solder everything every time.
 
Apr 7, 2009 at 6:52 PM Post #20 of 31
Okay, I may have found the problem... thanks Emooze for making me think of it...

I went to tangent's site, read up on different breadboards... I do in fact have protoboard, and now I see where the problem most likely is... I have soldered the 2nd LED's negative onto the same copper as the negative battery lead... I was only soldering together the pieces but didn't realize that the copper on the board will send current though the entire length...

I think that's how it works

Please don't laugh too much...
 
Apr 7, 2009 at 10:02 PM Post #21 of 31
Quote:

Originally Posted by Citizen86 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Okay, I may have found the problem... thanks Emooze for making me think of it...

I went to tangent's site, read up on different breadboards... I do in fact have protoboard, and now I see where the problem most likely is... I have soldered the 2nd LED's negative onto the same copper as the negative battery lead... I was only soldering together the pieces but didn't realize that the copper on the board will send current though the entire length...

I think that's how it works

Please don't laugh too much...



Just grab a xacto knife and sever the copper run
wink.gif
 
Apr 7, 2009 at 10:57 PM Post #22 of 31
Do the calculation and figure out how much current you put through the two LEDs. You will have to check the datasheet for them to see if you put too much current through them. I suspect that you have as you should not have had 9v at the + side of LED1 (should have been 2 x 1.3v = 2.6v if I understand everything correctly).
 
Apr 8, 2009 at 12:19 AM Post #23 of 31
Most of it's been covered, but a few comments to tie up loose ends:

First, it's not correct that the brightness of each LED will be different in the series configuration. Basic circuit analysis here: if current through LED1 is X, current through LED2 and LED3 must be X, too. LED brightness is purely a function of current, once you exceed the LED's Vf threshold. For it to be otherwise, current would have to be "escaping" the series string somehow.

Second, your chosen resistor value is too low, for two different reasons:
  • 20 mA is the outer limit of what these LEDs can tolerate, not a minimum operating current. I'd be surprised to learn that you need more than 5 mA for your project to work reliably. Keep in mind, infrared LEDs are used in remote controls, where a battery typically lasts months or years. Hard to imagine that they're using 20 mA, even just in brief pulses, and still getting that kind of battery life. Your project works over the same distance as a TV remote, so you should be able to use drive currents in the same ballpark as a remote control.
  • You've calculated based on ideal component values. A 270 ohm 5% resistor can be as low as 256.5 ohms, and a "9 V" alkaline battery starts out at more like 9.6 V when fresh. The current through the LEDs could thus be over 22 mA. I doubt you risk instant LED death at just 10% over the max limit, but why push it? Also, it's even worse with some flavors of "9 V" NiMH rechargeable, which can be well over 10 V when fresh out of the charger.
I'd put a 1K pot in series with that resistor and dial it up until your project stops working. Then measure the resistance of the pot and add the fixed resistor value to find your maximum resistor value; and then measure your battery voltage again, to find out what voltage it really is. This will give you the minimum operating current: Imin = Vbattery / (Rpot + Rfixed).

Third, now that you know Imin, seriously consider using a constant current source for the LED current limiter instead of a resistor. It adds a tiny bit of complication relative to a resistor, but it's much more efficient.

If you use resistors, to get full use of the battery, you have to set the resistor value to give Imin when the battery is dead, about 5 V for an alkaline "9 V". If you calculate the resistor to work clear down to this 1.1 V difference between the battery voltage and the LED string minimum voltage, you find that the resistor has to be 55 ohms, which makes it way too small when the battery is fresh: ~100 mA with a fresh 9.6 V alkaline! So, you go the other direction, sizing the current limiting resistor for a fresh battery, giving the LED string's max current at that voltage. This is what you did above, but modified to take into account real world tolerances: R = 1.05 * (9.6 / 0.02) = 300 ohms. Now you calculate where this causes the current through the string to drop below Imin. Say it's, 5 mA: V = 1.5 over the string minimum, or 5.4 V. You can't completely use up the battery, but you do get close, at the expense of using way more than Imin through the greatest part of the battery's useful life. There's the inefficiency I talked about.

Now switch to a constant current source (CCS). With an alkaline 9 V battery dying at around 5 V, that means we have 1.1 V left over for the CCS, which is barely adequate. Even if we have to call the minimum supply 5.4 V like with the resistor situation above (1.5 V left for the CCS) we're still much better off because we keep on using Imin no matter what the battery voltage is. You could even decide to put in 2x9V to get a longer run time, or switch to a wall supply and not care much about what voltage it really puts out.

Go ahead and use resistors while prototyping. But when it comes time to box the project up for the last time, place a Mouser order for a CRD of the correct value. Or, if your time is cheap, buy a bag of JFETs and measure Idss for them until you find one in the proper range. A JFET with drain and source shorted together is a pretty good CCS.
 
Apr 8, 2009 at 12:28 AM Post #24 of 31
Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent /img/forum/go_quote.gif
First, it's not correct that the brightness of each LED will be different in the series configuration. Basic circuit analysis here: if current through LED1 is X, current through LED2 and LED3 must be X, too. LED brightness is purely a function of current, once you exceed the LED's Vf threshold. For it to be otherwise, current would have to be "escaping" the series string somehow.


I always thought that was the case, but could never be bothered arguing it. Thanks for the clarification
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Apr 8, 2009 at 2:20 AM Post #26 of 31
Thanks a lot tangent! I'm going to be sure to read that again when I get some more parts in a day or two. Some of it is over my head though....

I'm still watching your videos as well, great references for when I'm working.
 
Apr 8, 2009 at 2:26 AM Post #27 of 31
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emooze /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Never had any experience with diodes in series. And the LED's won't be the same brightness if you get it working dude to voltage drops across each one.

Try putting the LED's in parallel, might need 2 more resistors for that though.



Sorry, that's bad advice. The situation would be the exact opposite of what you describe.
 
Apr 8, 2009 at 7:15 AM Post #28 of 31
Addendum.

^because LED in parallel increases current draw by a lot.

If you have 3 in parallel, you get 3x the current draw.

While if they are in series, they are only 1x the current LED required (Kirchoff's Current Law)
 
Jan 8, 2011 at 10:53 AM Post #29 of 31
i also did the same!!!!!but the fact is wen i used my brain it told me" 9 volts for 3 leds that is 4.5 volts is bad as the load gets more and the leds sont glowww<><><><><><><>try 5 leds and widout a resistor!!!!
 

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