[amraam]

Hey all,
 
I've always been confused about PC audio.  When listening to an audio program such as WinAmp I have 3 different volume controls - Winamp, Windows (XFi soundcard) and my Speakers.  I leave WinAmp on 100%, Windows at 50% and then use my speaker volume control.  What is the correct way to do it?
 
Also, how do you correctly set up EQs? I leave all my audio program EQs on Flat, and then adjust my sound cards EQ.  How do you it?
 
This is my EQ currently, it sounds OK, but I find I'm constantly fiddling.  Is it literally a case of of starting at 31Hz, fiddling with the slider until it sounds a bit better, then moving to 62Hz and so on?  If it's too hissy do you drop the 8k / 16k etc, or turn down the treble dial? Similarly with bass and the lower frequency controls?
 
Sorry for the many questions, I just want to know how to set it all up correctly - there seems to be so many features that do the same thing??
 
I have an XFi Fatal1ty Pro 5.1 sound card, with Logitech Z5400 5.1 THX Speakers.  I know 5.1 isn't ideal for music but I use it for games and movies a lot.
 
Cheers!

 

[JRG1990]

I set the winamp volume to max , dac volume to max (windows volume doesn't effect my dac) and control the volume with the speakers control pod, for headphones i just use the dac's volume control. There isn't a way to set up a eq correctly it depends on how your speakers/headphones shape the sound and what kind of sound you like, just play with the eq settings till you find the setting that suits you and your speakers, i have my eq on flat and dac eq on flat for my speakers just leaving the speakers to shape the sound, with my headphones i like a bit of extra bass so i use bass boost setting 1 on my dac.

 

[Gradoman]

Everything except your last pre-amp in the chain should be at 100%, unless you get distortion (say if line out from soundcard is clipping your pre-amp)

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

Everything except your last pre-amp in the chain should be at 100%, unless you get distortion (say if line out from soundcard is clipping your pre-amp)

I agree, except IF you have a software digital level meter check it to make sure your digital signal is not in the red when it is maxed out.  Overloaded Dac chips can not only cause distortion but also a degradation in sound quality.  If you are able to verify its not in the red with 100% digital out from the computer then ok, otherwise back it down until you are in the green.  I usually have mine at about the 85-90% mark....ymmv
 

 

[FEAST]

Quote:

Hey all,
 
I've always been confused about PC audio.  When listening to an audio program such as WinAmp I have 3 different volume controls - Winamp, Windows (XFi soundcard) and my Speakers.  I leave WinAmp on 100%, Windows at 50% and then use my speaker volume control.  What is the correct way to do it?
 
Also, how do you correctly set up EQs? I leave all my audio program EQs on Flat, and then adjust my sound cards EQ.  How do you it?
 
This is my EQ currently, it sounds OK, but I find I'm constantly fiddling.  Is it literally a case of of starting at 31Hz, fiddling with the slider until it sounds a bit better, then moving to 62Hz and so on?  If it's too hissy do you drop the 8k / 16k etc, or turn down the treble dial? Similarly with bass and the lower frequency controls?
 
Sorry for the many questions, I just want to know how to set it all up correctly - there seems to be so many features that do the same thing??
 
I have an XFi Fatal1ty Pro 5.1 sound card, with Logitech Z5400 5.1 THX Speakers.  I know 5.1 isn't ideal for music but I use it for games and movies a lot.
 
Cheers!

 
There is no such thing as too many questions.
 
Volume.
 
I used to use a sound blaster card for a long time.  Here is the deal.  Keep winamp at 100% because it is managing a digital signal that can only be reduced not amplified, and find the best setting for the sound card - because it is actually boosting a signal and has power restraints.  The sound card only has so much amplification power.  If you turn up your sound card too much it will start to distort and sound worse - and even potentially damage your system.   The card only receives and can put out so much power.  When you ask it to put out more power that it can - it wont put out that power, so the loudest parts or the song will distort and sound bad because they cant be properly reproduced at the volume level you are asking for.   I used a soundblaster audigy 2 ZS and above 60% volume I risked losing clarity and quality.  Especially in bass.  Your bass can get sloppy especially if you run a 2.1 with a sub like I do.    But you are using an Xfi which is a higher quality card.  The goal is to get the loudest signal, but with no distortion.  A good test is always to turn up your sound card all the way (turn the speakers down) and just listen to it (using a loud song that you know very well).  You should be able to hear the difference. .  Spend some time finding the volume point where you can just barely hear no distortion  (things that are fuzzy that shouldnt be/pops/clicks that shouldnt be there), then turn your card down 10-20%.  I would estimate that the distortion point is about 75% and that 50% is an excellent setting for your card.  
 
 
Now, for the EQ.
 
As a mixing engineer, I deal with EQ all day long.  Seriously.  I EQ things ALL DAY LONG.  Here are some general tip's for setting your EQ.  Do not boost frequencies.  Only cut.  When you boost a frequency, that frequency will shine above all the other's.  You will get sick of that frequency very quickly which is why you are constantly fiddling.  Louder deceptively sounds better - even if it is the same.  You could EQ boost any frequency and it would sound "better".  If you boost bass the bass will sound "better".  Same for treble etc.  It sounds good at first...but in the long run it will sound very worse because your mind is only focusing on the loudest frequencies.  Instead of hearing the whole musical piece you hear a glaring bass-line. Boosting treble always sounds good when you do it, but does it make the song sound better as a whole?  Lol what happened to the fat bass you used to hear?  Where did it go?  It sounds worse now... EQ'ing is about balance.  Do not EQ to make things sound good - because you will EQ-boost the random frequency you click on every single time.  You cannot change how good an instrument sounds.  You EQ for balance and depth.  You want smooth balanced audio because that is what sounds the best, and you want more depth in you mix - when all of the instruments are in harmony and fit together like a puzzle - nothing out of place, but every instrument clear and precise.  When you are boosting a frequency you are NOT boosting that frequency, you are cutting EVERYTHING else - and that throws the entire songs balance off in a bad way (affecting the sound A LOT).  When you cut a frequency you bring it down into balance with the rest of the frequencies.  When cutting you are only slightly affecting the sound (remember your mind focuses on the loud) because every other frequency will still be in balance.  Choose the frequencies you want to cut based on what sounds out of place.  If there is a ton of treble then trim it down.  Choose how much to trim that frequency based on what sounds natural.   Then cut half as much as you think you should.  Always half as much.  A little bit goes a long way and if you cut impulsively you will find yourself back at the EQ adjusting that very frequency the next day.
 
Once you are done, flip your EQ on and off.  Remembering that louder sounds better to our minds, if the EQ-trimming sounds better or just as good as with the EQ off, then you have done your job.  Because the flat mix is louder, if the EQ'd mix sounds as good, it actually sounds better at the same volume.  Turn your volume up a little and you will have a nice sound.
 
Not only that, every style of music and song will be affected differently by the EQ'ing you do.  The song you adjusted your EQ to may sound great, but you may ruin another song.  So you have to be careful and EQ lightly.  Something to be aware of is that mixing engineers like me EQ every instrument individually so we have way more control than you do.  We EQ things to sound good on all systems, including yours, and we generally know what we are doing.  We could EQ for 100% for headphones and speakers would sound 80% good.  So we EQ 90% for each and compromise.   We have the power to EQ and tailor each instrument in the song differently (we can boost bass on a treble instrument).  You cannot do that.  If you boost bass it boosts all the bass.  If you had the control we had then you could definitely EQ and tailor songs to sound way better on your speakers specifically.  But you don't.  The only EQ'ing you should be doing is to adjust for your individual preferences.  Don't EQ for your speakers.  I would suspect that your system lacks midrange because you have tiny tweeters and a sub.  No mid sized drivers.  So you could EQ the midrange up...but it isn't going to be that silky smooth midrange because your speakers aren't designed to sound amazing in the midrange.  So as you can see EQ is very tricky and in the end you just have to go with what sounds good.  Use the tips I gave you and use the EQ sparingly.  You really don't need it that much.  And the way you are currently EQ'ing you are much more likely to make your system sound worse than better.  But you probably think it sounds better because it is louder.
 
Now you know.
 
As for which EQ to choose.  They are both software EQ's.  The only way to know which one is better is to set them to the exact same settings and volumes and listen for the one that sounds like it is more transparent.  Don't assume one is better because it looks better or has more sliders.  A great EQ changes the frequencies but is smooth and invisible.  You don't want to hear your EQ, you want to hear your music.  Remember that.  You want the one that sounds more natural, and the one that sounds like it isn't there.
 
Also, if an EQ has 15 bands, dont adjust each band individually.  If you raise lower on band, then lower the bands to the left and right a little too.  And so on.  So there is a curve.  The less bands the less you need to do this.
 
Hope that helps!

 

[amraam]

Wow, such brilliant info guys, thanks!
 
So from what I've learned, basically I've been doing it right - a case of fiddling with each EQ, until it's correct, but taking a preference to cutting instead of boosting. I always try to keep the graph smooth - ie no suddent jumps between two adjacent frequency bars.
 
I have my sound card at 50% and like you say, anything about ~60% it just clips and distorts.

 

[Gradoman]

Eq's are baaaaaddd..

 

[amraam]

Yes EQs are bad if you have a perfect setup - in an ideal world you wouldn't need them.  However, very few have "perfect" setups. We can't all afford perfect setups and installs, so we need EQs instead.

 

[Dynobot]

.

 

[amraam]

Curious to know what your reply was lol

 

[Califf]

Very informative post from FEAST.
 
But let's think of this.
Not being a bass head, but still want to hear it when it's there, like with most rock music.
My headphones are not particularly good at reproducing basses, i.e. Grados, or similar. DAC/AMP are neutral, more or less.
Adjusting the EQ to cut all other frequencies above 200 actually does not add any basses (the bass volume is the same, just like the master volume), but all other freqs start sounding muted. The whole presentation is destroyed and EQ it thrown away.
What could be done to bring back basses without sacrificing other freqs then?

 

[xnor]

^ If the headphone/drivers cannot reproduce deep bass you cannot cure it magically with an EQ. Boosting will only result in a distorted mess.
Grados are rolled-off, so you could be out of luck..
 
Also, I've seen bad, but commonly used, EQs that will mess up the frequency response if you attenuate adjacent bands equally! In that case boosting's a better idea. Just make sure you attenuate the whole song at least by the amount of dB you boost so you don't run into clipping. Better audio players and EQs provide such a preamp feature.
 
Both of this could explain what you experienced, Califf.
 
 
Generally, I'd always go with a parametric EQ if possible. And don't EQ with your eyes, use your ears.

 

[FEAST]

Quote:

Very informative post from FEAST.
 
But let's think of this.
Not being a bass head, but still want to hear it when it's there, like with most rock music.
My headphones are not particularly good at reproducing basses, i.e. Grados, or similar. DAC/AMP are neutral, more or less.
Adjusting the EQ to cut all other frequencies above 200 actually does not add any basses (the bass volume is the same, just like the master volume), but all other freqs start sounding muted. The whole presentation is destroyed and EQ it thrown away.
What could be done to bring back basses without sacrificing other freqs then?

Well part of it is your ears frequency response as well as your phones.  Below 200hz-ish your actual hearing starts to roll off drastically.  At that frequency you start to feel the music.  Try 400 or 500hz.  This should sound much more natural and you will get a better boost.  In the situation you are describing it is okay to boost some bass.  Be aware that bass makes your mix sound muddy.  Like I said before if you were mixing your track and had full control you could boost bass on the kick and the bass guitar as needed.  But you are boosting the bass on everything.  Vocals, drums, kick's, guitars, synths etc.  So it is going to sound muddy.
 
Try 400hz and don't boost very much.  Your goal should not be to fix the problem - because you can't, your goal should be to get a little more bass without making your mix sound any muddier.  So like I said, boost a slightly higher frequency and don't boost as much.  If things are still too muddy then I suggest zeroing out your EQ and doing this:
 
-Use a wide band and dip your mid range down a bit.  Not too much.  Dip it as much as you think sounds the best, then do only half of that.  This should clear up the mix and widen the soundstage.  Turn up your volume a little to compensate.  Then pull back on the treble a tiny bit if and only if it is too harsh.  Then it should sound pretty good.

 

[Califf]

Thanks FEAST,
It helped somewhat, but the effect is rather limited. Adjusting too much starts to affect the overall sound.
 
I tried to listen through a vintage Technics recevier / amp with bass/treble knobs, and though it completely lacks in midrange and highs, with about +25% bass boost, it actually demonstrated me that my bass light SA5000 are capable of producing quite solid basses.
 
So I think I should be looking for a matching amp rather than tweaking EQ.

 

[FEAST]

Quote:

Thanks FEAST,
It helped somewhat, but the effect is rather limited. Adjusting too much starts to affect the overall sound.
 
I tried to listen through a vintage Technics recevier / amp with bass/treble knobs, and though it completely lacks in midrange and highs, with about +25% bass boost, it actually demonstrated me that my bass light SA5000 are capable of producing quite solid basses.
 
So I think I should be looking for a matching amp rather than tweaking EQ.

Yeah.  If you have any kind of decent headphones you should definitely be looking for the right amp.  Do be aware that as soon as you buy a new amp you will want to buy more and more and more gear.  It is very easy to go online and read 20 reviews about how great some product is only to find out that it sounds just like what you already have.  Suddenly you are listening to music way more, buying more gear, and spending way more time on audio in general.  Then when you go back to your old gear you realize how bad it sounds.
 
This is one of those things where you don't know what you are missing and are probably just as well off that way.  My advice to you is not to spend money on anything you think could sound better.  Only get new gear when you are not at all satisfied with what you have and know (and have heard) what sort of improvement you want and will gain from new equipment like an amp.
 
If you are plugging your phones into your soundcard...get an amp.  If you already have an integrated receiver etc with decent power to it - then don't expect much improvement.