[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll suggest a good many of these E.E.s and people who hear no difference are tone deaf and should stick to listening to AM car radios or a diskman and applebuds for sound...lol But no, they MUST tell their science to people who experience a difference... Internet ******* and a dime a dozen! lol

This is just pure thread crapping.

 

[Hi-Finthen]

^ Not at all, i'm sure many well intended people want to tell me what i hear, why can I not question their ability to hear, in terms of tone deafness or worse. I question their faculty to hear the differences i know exist, because that is my experience. There are pleanty of people for whom Apple buds are great, and thats good for them. Its just by experience I KNOW better.

Good luck with disproving others personal experience with arguement thou...

Have fun~

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are pleanty of people for whom Apple buds are great, and thats good for them.

That's not what this thread is about. If you would like to participate in the thread in some meaningful, intelligent way, then by all means do so. But if you do not even want to take the time to understand what the discussion is about, then please respect those of us who do and simply do not participate.

 

[ex0du5]

Hi-Finthen....they did experience a difference on the second test....they just preffered the Discman

 

[nicke2323]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daltonlanny /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have to say, reluctantly, that I do have to believe this to a certain extent after an experiment I did tonight. I level matched my headphone jack on Onkyo DX-7555 Cd player, my Creek OBH-11 SE [a $250.00 amp], Heed CanAmp [a $400.00 amp], and a Headroom Max [a $1,400.00 amp], using Sennheiser HD600 and HD650 headphones, and a Radio Shack Sound Level Meter. Results: They ALL sounded the SAME to me!!! No joke. The headphone jack on my Cd player sounded the same as the Headroom Max...what a disappointment! I also level matched my daughters portable Sony discman, [8 years old], and my Music Hall CD25.2 Cd player. I listened to them through both the Sennheisers and the AKG's using the Headroom Max. Results: They sounded the same! And this was even by visually knowing which one was playing at any given time! How could this be???

Ah yes, the red pill does leave a bitter aftertaste. In the end it saves you a lot of money though. If candy is what you want, eat the blue pill. Delicious, but very expensive.

 

[nicke2323]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJShadow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah right, I stand corrected, thank you Febs. This implies to me that the subjects have tin ears.

Possible. But if so, they are wildly delusional tin-eared subjects, because they apparently have spent $$$$ on some *serious* high-end equipment.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, Aczel does not claim that all amps sound the same. He claims that all amps that measure the same sound the same, and that differences in sound can be empirically observed.

Yes but when you actually read the reviews as you suggests he doesn't really tell you very much beyond that he has measured this or that.

He doesn't tell you for instance that the Marantz and Bryston equipment sounds completely different.

Although he does compare Marantz to Rotel which do have a quite similar sound unless you actually go and listen to their amps you are never going to be any the wiser from just reading the specs unless perhaps you are an engineer.

But most people arn't engineers and therefore he uses clumsy analogies like comparing an amp to a particular Hotel. Well that's fine if you go to Hotels a lot but what if you don't.

He has two modes of expression, specs and vitriol directed at anyone that could possibly have anything to say which he disagrees with. This isn't journalism it's bordering on a pathology.

 

[nicke2323]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Science is about empirical observation not arguing from a priori first principles. If enough people claim amps sound different then the question is why do they sound different and what other measurements should be made to try and explain this, rather than denying there is any difference in the first place. That's called dogma.

I agree, and scientists are researching this. Other scientists have shown that human perception can be extremely unreliable, and that our expectations often lead us to perceive things that don't exist. Yet other scientists have devised an extremely clever test that uses our own very unreliable senses to isolate actual real perception from imaginary ditto. This is the double-blind ABX test.

Now, search the scientific literature and surf the internet for positive ABX tests of modern high-end vs low-end amps and sources. I doubt you'll find any. That should tell you something, but it may not be what you want to hear. Whether you accept it or not is your choice. But do note that just accepting the audiophile tenet that expensive amps and sources sound better than cheap ones, without proof, is dogma.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

But no, they MUST tell their science to people who experience a difference... Internet ******* and a dime a dozen! lol

Hi-Finthen, you should take Mr. Clark up on his challenge and get $10,000, while showing him what an ****** he is.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicke2323 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now, search the scientific literature and surf the internet for positive ABX tests of modern high-end vs low-end amps and sources. I doubt you'll find any.

False.

I can point you to several positive ABX tests, see the links below there are some positive and some negative results. One thing to take away is that whether a difference is perceived or not is not closely correlated with price.

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_pwr.htm
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_cd.htm
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

In general I have seen more negative than positive tests, but positive tests do most assuredly exist.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicke2323 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now, search the scientific literature and surf the internet for positive ABX tests of modern high-end vs low-end amps and sources.

I don't necessarily disagree with the results or the testing methodology I just don't care for his lack of communication skills and ridiculous diatribes which go against my own experience and that of many others.

One sensible thing he does say is that ultimately listening to equipment should be the final arbiter of whether it's worth paying for or not.

Personally if I am going to spend money on a CD player or amp or whatever I'll read reviews in magazines and online in order to find out what's out there and then go and listen to it at a proper dealer with demo rooms.

Generally I'll compare all the stuff from the magazines and then end up buying something which I hadn't heard of or read about but that the dealer recommends listening to, because it usually turns out to be better. Certainly it all sounds different.

In my experience speaker cables and interconnects make a difference, power conditioning can make a difference depending on your locality and what other appliances are sharing the supply. The size of your room and how well damped it is makes an absolutely huge difference and you need to choose your amp and speakers accordingly.

With digital the speakers and amp can have a greater influence on the sound than the source, but expenive sources do deliver improvements albeit subtle ones and tend to be better made and last longer.

With analogue the source is of primary importance in the chain and the more money you spend the better it gets simple as that. However if it's a turntable you need to put most of the budget into the motorboard followed by the tonearm followed by the cart then the phonostage for the best resuls.

Buying cheaper older stuff on ebay etc is the only thing that's really changed this in the last decade and that makes it easier to try more equipment and pick up the odd bargain. Most importantly this gives the lie to the newer always means better school of thought and removes the root of the main conspiracy theory that disafected online Hi-Fi hacks peddle out, that the magazines are in the pay of the manufacturers etc etc. The market now set's it's own levels.

 

[nicke2323]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif False. I can point you to several positive ABX tests, see the links below there are some positive and some negative results. One thing to take away is that whether a difference is perceived or not is not closely correlated with price. http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_pwr.htm http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_cd.htm http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm In general I have seen more negative than positive tests, but positive tests do most assuredly exist.

Ummm ... you may have missed that I asked for ABX tests of *modern* equipment. In those links, the only CD player that was distinguishable in ABX testing was this one:

Quote:

The Phillips CD-100 was serial number 345, the first CD player in the US and only 14-bit.

Similarly, the only (somewhat) modern amplifier that failed the ABX test did so because it was driven into clipping.

Quote:

These speakers required a great deal of power and the Audio Research D120 was unstable when clipped, which proved audible.

But thanks for taking the challenge! Please continue the search for positive ABX tests!

 

[Hi-Finthen]

So, the recommended sound system extrapolated from these test would look like what exactly?

Diskman--Boosterroo--Koss-KSC75 with RatShack I/Cs... I'm sure they measure well...

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't necessarily disagree with the results or the testing methodology I just don't care for his lack of communication skills and ridiculous diatribes which go against my own experience and that of many others.

Agreed, Aczel is far too rabid, almost religiously so. Preference is preference, science is science and testing is testing, there is really no need to get het up about it. I think Aczel takes it all far too personally as if somebody paying for a dubious tweak is a personal insult to him. He reminds me a lot of James Randi.

Quote:

With digital the speakers and amp can have a greater influence on the sound than the source, but expenive sources do deliver improvements albeit subtle ones

Not always.

Quote:

Most importantly this gives the lie to the newer always means better[1] ... The market now set's it's own levels[2].

1. Agreed

2. Debatable as to whether this really reflects real underlying value.The Market is not a rational force, nor is it neutral, markets are very easily manipulated, look at Beanie Babies utterly absurd, of no real value and yet changed hands for $100s or $1000s of dollars. Make something rare enough and it will become expensive even if it is complete rubbish.

A few years ago you couldnt give away most of the old Thorens Turntables, I did some searching on Internet newsgroups , the non-124 and non-125 models were going for pennies, now they are worth hundreds of dollars, I dont see that they have gotten better with age. Vinyl is enjoying a small renaissance and even some rational people (myself included) are trying it again, so, given that few manufacturers make TTs, there is a gap in the market. Bizarrely I could sell my old Rega for more than I paid for it

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by balou /img/forum/go_quote.gif I feel offended by mr. aczels statement, and I think everybody else who likes music will feel so too.

Let's add another myth to the list, one I see an incredible amount on A/V sites.

"The more you spend on your equipment, the more you enjoy music."

Have fun with that one