Why is everyone on the internet buying and recommending such expensice DAC/AMPs?
What is a good transparent dac amp combo? Well I did watch and read reviews of the R2R before buying. But you cannot really tell what warm or dark really is until you actually listen to the stuff.
Would I have been better off with an NFB-11 instead?
I just need a dac amp combo to last me a long time which will pair well with other headphones that I will buy down the line. So I think transparent is the way to go for that purpose. Don't you think?
I have an NFB-11. Bought it in July of 2014. Still going strong, no problems. And because it's with my desktop computer, I just leave it on for weeks on end. But if I were you, I wouldn't trade out the R2R for it, or for any other equipment for that matter.
Before the NFB-11, I had a Schiit Asgard 2 with an ODAC. Despite the fact that I'm sure others would cite noticeable sonic differences between that setup and the NFB-11, I found minimal differences between the two setups (although I'm glad I switched because the Asgard 2 amp was a heater). Not everyone is wowed by that 1% improvement you may get in sound quality when from switching to a different or more expensive DAC/amp setups, assuming that the unit you have is able to drive the headphones correctly to begin with (which the R2R can).
However, it does seem strange that you found the R2R muddier than your Ipad Air2. Maybe there is something wrong with it. I would write Audio-GD and ask them about that. Tell them you have HD 650s (in case they don't know about the Massdrop edition).
I have an NFB-11. Bought it in July of 2014. Still going strong, no problems. And because it's with my desktop computer, I just leave it on for weeks on end. But if I were you, I wouldn't trade out the R2R for it, or for any other equipment for that matter.
Before the NFB-11, I had a Schiit Asgard 2 with an ODAC. Despite the fact that I'm sure others would cite noticeable sonic differences between that setup and the NFB-11, I found minimal differences between the two setups (although I'm glad I switched because the Asgard 2 amp was a heater). Not everyone is wowed by that 1% improvement you may get in sound quality when from switching to a different or more expensive DAC/amp setups, assuming that the unit you have is able to drive the headphones correctly to begin with (which the R2R can).
However, it does seem strange that you found the R2R muddier than your Ipad Air2. Maybe there is something wrong with it. I would write Audio-GD and ask them about that. Tell them you have HD 650s (in case they don't know about the Massdrop edition).
It's interesting what you point out. Should I wait for it to burn in properly then. It barely has about 25 hrs of use so far. Can burning in really make that much of a difference in quality?
It's interesting what you point out. Should I wait for it to burn in properly then. It barely has about 25 hrs of use so far. Can burning in really make that much of a difference in quality?
AudioGD stuff tends to be warm. R2R tends to smooth out sound a bit. The HD6xx tends to be a little on the warm side. Also, newer audioGD stuff has a sound that is controversial (some like it, some hate it). Personally, I would not buy AudioGD without listening to the specific model first. Hard to do unless you know someone with one.
Unless you are very discerning, amp and DAC only add a little to sound quality right out of a decent device, like the ipad. Obviously an amp will add more volume, and potentially more "headroom" to provide better bass. At low to moderate listen levels, direct output from an iPad should be fine for most people. If you want to try to up the game a bit, a schiit stack or massdrop SDAC with one of their amps might provide a better outcome for you. Heck, even a stereo or home theater receiver might work, if you have the space. If you have one you can test with, give it a try.
I have to disagree with your two last sentences. Using a stereo or home theatre is not a recommended solution for most headphones, because most of these mid-fi components from well knows manufacturers (Sony, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer etc.) use headphone outputs plugged directly from their main amp instead of having a dedicated headphone amp driving the headphone output. The main consequence is that the headphone output impedance is very high, over 100 ohms in all cases, reaching close to 400 ohms in some cases like my recent Onkyo 8160 Stereo Receiver. This disturbs the frequency response balance (mostly boosting the bass region) and the lower damping factor resulting from the match with the headphone, even when using a high impedance headphone such as the 300 ohm HD6xx, will affect the firmness of the bass, making it more loose and uncontrolled. It’s not catastrophic, but if you want to reach high fidelity standards with your headphone setup, you must respect the 8/1 rule of thumb, where the impedance of your headphone must be 8x the output impedance of the amp driving it. That is why a dedicated external headphone amp is recommended in most cases, because these headphone amps normally have an output impedance rating of 10 or less, and in many cases below 2 or 1 ohm. Some well made high end stereo receivers or home cinema receivers may have a design providing an independant dedicated headphone amp enclosed, but I still haven’t found one myself (not that I have searched throughfully). Even vintage stereo receivers from the 70s or 80s have the same problem with headphone outputs. Many consumers won’t bother because the problem caused by the impedance mismatch will increase the bass response (although looser bass) and your average Joe with his low budget headphone will appreciate the increased bass balance. Just my 2 cents.
The receivers have a resistor at the output of the headphone jack, 120 or more ohms. Could be 200 ohms. Refer to the manual or schematic diagram on the value. It may turn out like bottle head crack due to significant impedance relative to HD6XX 300 ohms, who knows.
I got the R2R for 350 USD, and am willing to spend that much again. I did consider the stack before buying the R2R. However I hear that the QC and customer support for Schiit isn't great so I decided against it, particularly because I'm not in the US.
Sorry to say you heard wrong. Possibly from the dingdongs at ASR, maybe?
Schiit has some of the best customer support in the business, and excellent quality control. Thousands of happy customer here on head-fi, and many many more not on head-fi.
For $350 you should be able to get a used Jot with DAC or new Modi/Magni, or even a Mimby/Magni3 from B stock ($287). I haven't tried the Fulla, but for $99 you get a budget all-in-one that may meet your needs. Topping and SMSL make some gear that many like, although a number of top tier audiophile sneer at. You might consider their gear.
Figure out a way to try gear with free or shipping only returns, or find local folks the you can borrow or listen at their house, or attend a meet. If that's too much work, get the schiit and be happy.
Sorry to say you heard wrong. Possibly from the dingdongs at ASR, maybe?
Schiit has some of the best customer support in the business, and excellent quality control. Thousands of happy customer here on head-fi, and many many more not on head-fi.
For $350 you should be able to get a used Jot with DAC or new Modi/Magni, or even a Mimby/Magni3 from B stock ($287). I haven't tried the Fulla, but for $99 you get a budget all-in-one that may meet your needs. Topping and SMSL make some gear that many like, although a number of top tier audiophile sneer at. You might consider their gear.
Figure out a way to try gear with free or shipping only returns, or find local folks the you can borrow or listen at their house, or attend a meet. If that's too much work, get the schiit and be happy.
Well so far i have learnt one thing- listen before you buy.
All those reviews online are great but you cant really tell what something sounds like unless you actually hear it.
The R2R seems to be taking away the separation of the channels to a small extent and also making the music dull.
So im definitely willing to try the gear out before i buy.
but if you want to reach high fidelity standards with your headphone setup, you must respect the 8/1 rule of thumb, where the impedance of your headphone must be 8x the output impedance of the amp driving it.
Meh, that was some musing about dampening from some discredited guy years ago. Rumor has it he runs ASR now. My crack, with output impedance for 120ohm sounds wonderful with the HD6xx. Not even close to 8/1 ratio. Sure, it's a decent rule of thumb (as you said), but damping factor for speakers is not the same as for headphones.
As for the receiver suggestion, I would just say try it, you might be surprised. Especially with older receivers. Sure, my Yahama Rx-A2050 is a higher end receiver, but my NAD 7020 is from the 80's and the headphone out sounds pretty dang good with all my headphones. I picked it up from craigslist for $80.
Sorry to say you heard wrong. Possibly from the dingdongs at ASR, maybe?
Schiit has some of the best customer support in the business, and excellent quality control. Thousands of happy customer here on head-fi, and many many more not on head-fi.
For $350 you should be able to get a used Jot with DAC or new Modi/Magni, or even a Mimby/Magni3 from B stock ($287). I haven't tried the Fulla, but for $99 you get a budget all-in-one that may meet your needs. Topping and SMSL make some gear that many like, although a number of top tier audiophile sneer at. You might consider their gear.
Figure out a way to try gear with free or shipping only returns, or find local folks the you can borrow or listen at their house, or attend a meet. If that's too much work, get the schiit and be happy.
You are correct that most people have great customer service experiences when working with them directly with Schiit. I've been happy enough with my experiences. However, if you are not in the United States as the poster indicated, it's a bit harder to work with them directly. You have to deal with international shipping for purchase and any warranty issues and relevant taxes which can have a significant impact on costs. If they want to deal with someone locally, then they'd have to use a distributor. There have been complaints that some of the international distributors for Schiit not providing great service, but maybe that's improved.
You are correct that most people have great customer service experiences when working with them directly with Schiit. I've been happy enough with my experiences. However, if you are not in the United States as the poster indicated, it's a bit harder to work with them directly. You have to deal with international shipping for purchase and any warranty issues and relevant taxes which can have a significant impact on costs. If they want to deal with someone locally, then they'd have to use a distributor. There have been complaints that some of the international distributors for Schiit not providing great service, but maybe that's improved.
oops, I missed the the OP wasn't in the USA. Thanks.
Someone above mentioned burnin. I'm not a big burn in believer of electronics, but I do believe in letting things warm up. I know the stuff int he Schiit r2r DAC can take hours to warmup properly, maybe that is true for the audio GD stuff too.
Meh, that was some musing about dampening from some discredited guy years ago. Rumor has it he runs ASR now. My crack, with output impedance for 120ohm sounds wonderful with the HD6xx. Not even close to 8/1 ratio. Sure, it's a decent rule of thumb (as you said), but damping factor for speakers is not the same as for headphones.
As for the receiver suggestion, I would just say try it, you might be surprised. Especially with older receivers. Sure, my Yahama Rx-A2050 is a higher end receiver, but my NAD 7020 is from the 80's and the headphone out sounds pretty dang good with all my headphones. I picked it up from craigslist for $80.
As long as it suits your needs, go with what sounds good to you. You are right that tube amps have high output impédances, and that is one of reasons that tube amps sound like they do (other than the tubes themselves). I said it and you said it, it’s a rule of thumb, for the better or the worse. A low ratio like 2 to 1 will slightly boost the bass response and will loosen the overall bass fidelity and you may like it or not, depending on your preference and the gear you use it with. As long as you enjoy the music it provides, its the final goal after all...
I remain convinced that the high impedance output of most stereo receivers are not optimized for most headphones. It’s an economical choice for the manufacturer to add a resistor at the output in order to use the main amp as the headphone amp instead of adding a dedicated low impedance op amp optimized for headphones.
R2R Dacs use a resistor ladder with pretty tight tolerances, and the performance of resistors changes with temperature. So at least in theory, the "warm up" period would let the resistors get to the appropriate and stable temperature needed for the most accurate performance. I'm not big into physics, so in practice I'm not sure how much this really matters or how long you need to let things warm up. The idea is similar to tubes, it might take a few minutes for the tube to warm up and operate within in it's intended tolerances (but people tend to exaggerate the warm up time needed with tubes).
As you mentioned, this warm up is different than burn-in which usually people talk about when just running equipment for some amount of time to "break it in". The theory around this is much less compelling to me, and I think the effect is psychological. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference in perceived sound, but it's from your brain getting used to the equipment, not any physical process.
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