[Rallerbabz]

Hello guys,
 
I've got a pair of HD598's and I love them so far.
 
The first month I just used them with my onboard soundcard and was just fine with it being the way it was.
 
I then got a ASUS Xonar U7 for christmas and been listening with it since then. Thinking about it, I havent really been able to hear a difference between my onboard and my U7. I've read a couple of reviews about the U7 and it should actually be a very good external soundcard. I've since then did some testing, listened to a song with and without the U7 connected. After listening the same song like 20 times I have a feeling that the U7 does deliver slightly better sound, but I can't really hear it and justify it properly. I've set up a blind test and I really can't differentiate between them so I might just think it's an placebo effect. But I have this feeling that without the U7 the sound is just more..boring but whenever I switch to the U7 I really can't hear any difference.
 
I'm just in doubt whether I should return the U7 since I can't really justify the 100 dollars that the U7 cost in Denmark, on the slight change in sound(if I can even hear any). I've considered the fiiO E10k as well, but I mean. If I'm having trouble hearing the difference between Xonar U7, I don't think E10k will change that, even though some might say it's the better choice between U7 and E10k.
 
I've been reading a lot on the hi-fi forums around the internet, and the general agreement tends to be that going with proper headphones comes an amp or at least a dedicated soundcard. Literally everyone seems to hate on onboard sound. This makes me very confused. Since my hearing isnt the best, it might also hinder me to hear the difference - I don't know?
 
Any tips what to do? I'm just in heavily doubt about what to do honesty. When comparing onboard and U7, is there anything specific to listen for maybe? I've tried to listen to specific instruments in a song and tried to hear if there is any difference in their clarity, but there really isnt. 
 
I've a receiver that I've tried connecting my HD598 to. The difference between when listening thru my onboard and receiver definitely there, the bass is much more obvious(bigger/better/clearer or whatever the term is. No bass amping or loudness boost enabled)). My receiver isnt something expensive though, but I figured that it should be able to drive my headphones 100% though (Denon PMA 510ae). It is hard to find the exact same volume for my PC and then my receiver. So what I can hear is the difference between U7/onboard and my receiver, but not much between U7 and onboard. At least it's extremely little. I'm wondering if this means that the U7 arent driving my Hd598's to the fullest? I just thought the HD598 doesnt require much and not even necessarily an amp, so I'm wondering why there's a difference between U7 and my receiver.

 

[KG Jag]

Non-vintage receivers tend to have crappy headphone out sections.  The HD 598 sounds a notch or two better with a decent headphone amp or through a sound card with a good build in amp.
 
Of course the (lack of) quality of the DAC you use and/or your music files may limit the improvement.

 

[Rallerbabz]

  Non-vintage receivers tend to have crappy headphone out sections.  The HD 598 sounds a notch or two better with a decent headphone amp or through a sound card with a good build in amp.
 
Of course the (lack of) quality of the DAC you use and/or your music files may limit the improvement.

I'm comparing Spotify Premium music files, which should be okay-ish. It's not FLAC, but it should be 320kbps
 
Are you really saying that my receiver's headphone output arent necessarily better? I thought a receiver made to drive speakers were more than enough to show the headphones full potential.
 
Thanks for your response btw, but what would you recommend me to do? I wouldn't say I'm an audiophile at all, is it just because I can't hear the difference between Hd598 with an amp/soundcard or is it the U7 that doesnt drive HD598 good enough? From what I read, it should be able to drive them just fine though. I'm so confused. I hope someone in here can help me, I feel like I will take the wrong decision regardless of my choice.

 

[billybob_jcv]

IMHO, you should not expect an amp or DAC to always make the sound "better". It primarily depends on the headphones being used. If the headphones *need* more than the onboard sound can provide, then the amp will make a big difference. If the headphones can be driven well from the relatively modest output of most onboard sound, then the difference might be much, much less. The idea that you can *always* improve the sound by buying a DAC or amp is, IMHO, simply BS perpetuated by forums like this that are full of people that need to justify their desire to spend more and more money on shiny new toys.

 

[KG Jag]

 

  Non-vintage receivers tend to have crappy headphone out sections.  The HD 598 sounds a notch or two better with a decent headphone amp or through a sound card with a good build in amp.
 
Of course the (lack of) quality of the DAC you use and/or your music files may limit the improvement.

I'm comparing Spotify Premium music files, which should be okay-ish. It's not FLAC, but it should be 320kbps
 
Are you really saying that my receiver's headphone output arent necessarily better? I thought a receiver made to drive speakers were more than enough to show the headphones full potential.
 
Thanks for your response btw, but what would you recommend me to do? I wouldn't say I'm an audiophile at all, is it just because I can't hear the difference between Hd598 with an amp/soundcard or is it the U7 that doesnt drive HD598 good enough? From what I read, it should be able to drive them just fine though. I'm so confused. I hope someone in here can help me, I feel like I will take the wrong decision regardless of my choice.

Don't equate the ability of a modern receiver to drive speakers with its ability to properly drive headphones.  They don't equate and most companies have chiseled on their headphone sections compared to decades ago.
 
An improved DAC will improve your ability to reproduce quality audio, regardless of format and what else is in that digital chain.  However, in the case of computer audio, that equipment needs to be properly installed and adjusted through Windows (the operating system) and relevant software.  I'm not a computer audio guy.  However others here, like PurpleAngel, can give you more specifics about it.

 

[Rallerbabz]

IMHO, you should not expect an amp or DAC to always make the sound "better". It primarily depends on the headphones being used. If the headphones *need* more than the onboard sound can provide, then the amp will make a big difference. If the headphones can be driven well from the relatively modest output of most onboard sound, then the difference might be much, much less. The idea that you can *always* improve the sound by buying a DAC or amp is, IMHO, simply BS perpetuated by forums like this that are full of people that need to justify their desire to spend more and more money on shiny new toys.

Thanks for reply mate
 
If I shouldnt expect the sound to become better, what should I listen for then? Some details would be nice.
But basically I hear you saying return the U7 and go with onboard. 
 

 
Don't equate the ability of a modern receiver to drive speakers with its ability to properly drive headphones.  They don't equate and most companies have chiseled on their headphone sections compared to decades ago.
 
An improved DAC will improve your ability to reproduce quality audio, regardless of format and what else is in that digital chain.  However, in the case of computer audio, that equipment needs to be properly installed and adjusted through Windows (the operating system) and relevant software.  I'm not a computer audio guy.  However others here, like PurpleAngel, can give you more specifics about it.

Thanks for the reply!!
I'm not quite sure what you mean with adjusting stuff thru windows, I thought it was pretty much plug and play and install the drivers. Not sure what else I can do. There's not too many settings in the ASUS Xonar U7 software.
 
This PurpleAngel guy - hopefully he will drop by with a comment

 

[billybob_jcv]

Thanks for reply mate

If I shouldnt expect the sound to become better, what should I listen for then? Some details would be nice.
But basically I hear you saying return the U7 and go with onboard. 

Thanks for the reply!!
I'm not quite sure what you mean with adjusting stuff thru windows, I thought it was pretty much plug and play and install the drivers. Not sure what else I can do. There's not too many settings in the ASUS Xonar U7 software.

This PurpleAngel guy - hopefully he will drop by with a comment

Did the amp make the headphones louder at the same volume level of the source? After very carefully matching the volume with & without the amp, did the music seem to be any more dynamic, where the soft passages and the high energy passages seem farther apart? Again at an equal volume, are the highest energy parts of the song any more impactful, where the highs sizzle ust a little more or the lows have a bit more weight or texture?

 

[Rallerbabz]

Did the amp make the headphones louder at the same volume level of the source? After very carefully matching the volume with & without the amp, did the music seem to be any more dynamic, where the soft passages and the high energy passages seem farther apart? Again at an equal volume, are the highest energy parts of the song any more impactful, where the highs sizzle ust a little more or the lows have a bit more weight or texture?

The volume is identical at 20% volume on both. (i've ensured it's the same in Spotify and under the mixer of course). I've spent hours changing between the two with the same songs and same 10 sec of the song. I'm having a very hard time hearing any differences. But I have this 'feeling' that without the U7 the sound feels more 'flat' or however it's described. I'm just having a hard time defending it, since I can't really hear any real difference.
 
EDIT: When listening at 40% on both the U7 is louder though. What does this mean? (I never listen at this high volume though)

 

[Rallerbabz]

Anyone?

 

[chimmycham]

I'm having some trouble deciding which Amp to get for my HD598s
I've had the phones for at least a year..
 
For the DAC, I'll go with the Schiit Modi2 Uber
 
I'm deciding between the:
 
Schiit Magni2 Uber
Schiit Vali
and O2/ODAC (replacing the Modi)
 
Does anyone have any experience with these combos and the HD 598s?
 
Thanks.

 

[billybob_jcv]

The volume is identical at 20% volume on both. (i've ensured it's the same in Spotify and under the mixer of course). I've spent hours changing between the two with the same songs and same 10 sec of the song. I'm having a very hard time hearing any differences. But I have this 'feeling' that without the U7 the sound feels more 'flat' or however it's described. I'm just having a hard time defending it, since I can't really hear any real difference.

EDIT: When listening at 40% on both the U7 is louder though. What does this mean? (I never listen at this high volume though)

The position of the volume knob (20% or whatever) is irrelevant. When you compare two amps, they will produce different output power, and it is likely that the volume knob might need to be at different positions to achieve the same loudness. What's important is whether there is any difference in the quality of the sound when they seem to be at the same loudness level. Humans are not very good at discerning small differences in loudness. We'll call two sounds the same when one is actually a bit louder than the other. We also tend to perceive louder as "better" quality sound. When you combine those two things, it's easy for someone to confuse an amp that is slightly louder as being slightly better. That's why I asked you to try to carefully match the loudness of the two tests. I didn't want you to confuse "louder" with "better".

 

[billybob_jcv]

I'm having some trouble deciding which Amp to get for my HD598s
I've had the phones for at least a year..

For the DAC, I'll go with the Schiit Modi2 Uber

I'm deciding between the:

Schiit Magni2 Uber
Schiit Vali
and O2/ODAC (replacing the Modi)

Does anyone have any experience with these combos and the HD 598s?

Thanks.

I think any of those options will work very well. Quite frankly, I don't think there's going to be a huge difference no matter which you pick. I suspect you would find plenty of fans of any of those 3 choices, and each camp would have good reasons why they are making their choice. If I were you, I would just pick the one that seems to interest you the most.

 

[kramer5150]

If you've done a proper blind ABX with high res / lossless data, equal volume levels, using the exact same music passage every time... you're miles ahead of most here on HF.
 
Your results are genuine and they don't surprise me the least.  The HD598 is a low impedance / high sensitivity headphone.  It just doesn't need a high voltage swing or current reserves to play cleanly.  Of course this depends completely on your preferred listening volumes.   Its also a somewhat colored headphone, with its own signature thats going to impose its own frequency and harmonic/resonant signature on top of whats up-stream.
 
If you can't hear a difference on a blind ABX, then the difference (from your perspective) doesn't exist.  And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that... go with what sounds good!!  Adding an amp stage just for the sake of adding stuff in the signal chain makes no sense.
 
Contrary to a lot of what you read, amps sound different.  Different circuit designs, different components within, filter capacitance, potentiometers... AMPS CAN AND OFTEN TIMES DO sound different.  Again, your blind ABX is telling you this in regard to your receiver headphone amp.  Which also doesn't surprise me.  Both my Denon and Sony home theater receivers are on the bass heavy side of neutral... on a blind ABX.
 
If it sounds good then it IS GOOD.

 

[chimmycham]

  If you've done a proper blind ABX with high res / lossless data, equal volume levels, using the exact same music passage every time... you're miles ahead of most here on HF.
 
Your results are genuine and they don't surprise me the least.  The HD598 is a low impedance / high sensitivity headphone.  It just doesn't need a high voltage swing or current reserves to play cleanly.  Of course this depends completely on your preferred listening volumes.   Its also a somewhat colored headphone, with its own signature thats going to impose its own frequency and harmonic/resonant signature on top of whats up-stream.
 
If you can't hear a difference on a blind ABX, then the difference (from your perspective) doesn't exist.  And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that... go with what sounds good!!  Adding an amp stage just for the sake of adding stuff in the signal chain makes no sense.
 
Contrary to a lot of what you read, amps sound different.  Different circuit designs, different components within, filter capacitance, potentiometers... AMPS CAN AND OFTEN TIMES DO sound different.  Again, your blind ABX is telling you this in regard to your receiver headphone amp.  Which also doesn't surprise me.  Both my Denon and Sony home theater receivers are on the bass heavy side of neutral... on a blind ABX.
 
If it sounds good then it IS GOOD.

The idea was to upgrade my DAC, and if I do that, I'll need an Amp also.
 
I'm using a Macbook Pro Retina (Early 2013) (I'm not sure what DAC is in it..)
 
I'm probably going to get an Audio-GD NFB-15... I'm not sure