[Eisenhower]

These headphones are extremely popular, especially as first "audiophile" headphones. Look at the amazon page for example: http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-280-Pro-Headphones/dp/B000065BPB/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335973689&sr=8-1
 
4.5 stars with 780 reviews. That suggests that they are fantastic headphones. People looking for their first pair of headphones often will choose based on the amazon reviews.
 
But the problem is that, and I think many people will agree with me, is that these headphones are really bad. Thin and small sounding, and very uncomfortable. Yet, people have got it in their heads that these headphones are "made for the studio" and are "tight and clear sounding" (which you could say about any tinny sounding headphone).
 
Seriously, if I read one more stupid comment like "of course there isn't any bass, these are meant to be studio monitors!!1" I'm going to explode. I know what a good analytical headphone and what studio monitors sound like, and these are nothing like them. Making your music sound like **** doesn't mean your headphones are "revealing"'.
 
Take for example this review, which is actually less than flattering: http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/04/reviews_overears/?pid=2291
In one sentence the guy says "If there's any hint of coloration (anywhere), I certainly couldn't find it." and in the next: "But frankly, I found the 280's pronounced lack of bass and mids a little boring..."
LOL, people want so strongly to believe that these are ultra-flat response studio headphones that they completely contradict themselves (a pronounced lack of bass and mids is a coloration!)
 
I've tried two different pairs, amped and unamped. Sennheiser would have scraped these long ago if they weren't so wildly popular, I think.
 
Is anyone else as concerned that these cans are giving people a poor impressions of non-bose/beats headphones? In particular, of Sennhesier?
 
I mean, anyone who isn't full of **** would choose beats by dre over the hd-280 in an comparison. I certainly don't want the hd-280 to represent entry level high-end headphones. I'd rather people buy the shure srh440 or sony v6.

 

[BrownBear]

I agree with the fact that the HD280 can be underwhelming, depending on what you were expecting. I thought my pair was great, until I got my Grados. Then I thought the HD280 was flat and accurate, until I got my Monitor 10s. I do think the HD280 sound strange, and thin and small are two words that are perfect for describing the sound to me. Although, honestly, I didn't think they were terrible. Yes, they are my least favorite cans I've heard or owned, but regardless, they do have their purposes. They do isolate some noise, and I think the extend pretty low, even if those lows might be a tad exaggerated. I think they could be used in the studio to track or to listen to rough mixes or something, but by no means would I rely on these to provide an accurate reference sound.
 
People might be impressed by the name Sennheiser, you know. Like wow, they make the HD650 so the HD280 must be a pretty good headphone, kind of thing. I know that is exactly what was running through my mind four years ago when I bought them, and since then, I've learned so much more.
 
I think an important thing to remember as well, is that Sennheiser, at least to my knowledge, markets these a a DJ headphone. They aren't marketed as an audiophile headphone, at least that I have seen.
 
And I think the pronounced lack of mids and bass is interesting, because yes, these lack the mid bass hump that many associate with 'bass', but as I mentioned earlier, they do extend low. What I mean is, I don't think a headphone needs to have a midbass hump to sound good. The HD280 does have bass, it's there. And no, I don't think they are ruler flat or anything, at least not to my knowledge. My Monitor 10's are much flatter in my opinion, and a much more balanced sound than these. And tinny is not a word I would use to describe the sound of the Monitor 10 at all. They sound amazing.
 
But, no, I don't think you're missing anything. I agree with most of this, and I think that there are much better offerings that people could be looking at when it comes to closed headphones in the $100 price range. Heck, I love my Pro/4AA so much better than the HD280, I think they sound better and even isolate more. I don't know if the HD280 is considered the entry level to audiophile sound, though. As far as I was aware, that title goes to the SR-60.
 
Anyway, just my opinion.

 

[Bossatiger]

I have the impression that you misunderstand this headphone as well as its hype.
Quote:

 
Thin and small sounding, and very uncomfortable. Yet, people have got it in their heads that these headphones are "made for the studio" and are "tight and clear sounding" (which you could say about any tinny sounding headphone).

 
People have got it in their heads that they were "made for the studio" because of its flat response. It was not made for "enjoyable" listening. Sennheiser created a flatter response in order to meet the demands of the studio. I agree upon how it is terribly uncomfortable, but it does have excellent passive isolation compared to other full sized headphones in its range.
 
 

Seriously, if I read one more stupid comment like "of course there isn't any bass, these are meant to be studio monitors!!1" I'm going to explode. I know what a good analytical headphone and what studio monitors sound like, and these are nothing like them. Making your music sound like **** doesn't mean your headphones are "revealing"'.
 
LOL, people want so strongly to believe that these are ultra-flat response studio headphones that they completely contradict themselves (a pronounced lack of bass and mids is a coloration!)

There is tight, controlled, and focused bass. They do not make the music sound bad; instead, they present them in a more neutral form.
 
You may know what good analytical headphones sound like, but you have no idea what real studio monitors sound like. Have you heard true loudspeaker monitors? The speaker monitors are built with a flat response. As you would put it, those monitors would also make the music sound like **** because they do not give you the enjoyable bass and mids you oh so want from a monitor.
 
These may be ultra-flat to some, but not to me. True flat frequency response cannot be possible at least for now from a headphone. But for what Sennheiser asks for it (<$100), it is flat as you can get for a budget headphone monitor. 
 
The "pronounced lack of bass and mids" is a coloration from your personal tastes. Sennheiser does not honestly care about your "analytical" tastes of enjoyable, boosted bass and mids.
They were not created with your tastes in mind; they were created with the purposes of the studio. And boy do you not understand the studio.

 

[Mad Max]

HD280's recessed midbass can leave one wanting.  Also, the resonant rear chamber needs acoustic foam dampening badly.  It drastically thins out the soundstage by killing off the layering.  With acoustic foam, the soundstage is far, far better, though you will sacrifice a little bass impact.
 
For $100, it gives you decent clarity, treble sparkle, killer isolation (besting even HD25), rugged build quality, and plenty of low bass without overdoing it or giving you boatloads of midbass to achieve that much low bass.
Good looks, too.  When I tried using one as a portable, I got plenty of questions and compliments on them, whereas my HD25 is always ignored, lol.

 

[Eisenhower]

Quote:

I have the impression that you misunderstand this headphone as well as its hype.
 
People have got it in their heads that they were "made for the studio" because of its flat response. It was not made for "enjoyable" listening. Sennheiser created a flatter response in order to meet the demands of the studio. I agree upon how it is terribly uncomfortable, but it does have excellent passive isolation compared to other full sized headphones in its range.
 
There is tight, controlled, and focused bass. They do not make the music sound bad; instead, they present them in a more neutral form.
 
You may know what good analytical headphones sound like, but you have no idea what real studio monitors sound like. Have you heard true loudspeaker monitors? The speaker monitors are built with a flat response. As you would put it, those monitors would also make the music sound like **** because they do not give you the enjoyable bass and mids you oh so want from a monitor.
 
These may be ultra-flat to some, but not to me. True flat frequency response cannot be possible at least for now from a headphone. But for what Sennheiser asks for it (<$100), it is flat as you can get for a budget headphone monitor. 
 
The "pronounced lack of bass and mids" is a coloration from your personal tastes. Sennheiser does not honestly care about your "analytical" tastes of enjoyable, boosted bass and mids.
They were not created with your tastes in mind; they were created with the purposes of the studio. And boy do you not understand the studio.

 
My criticism was exactly of the defence you are giving. Any criticism of this headphone (and of etymotics, for example) are met with accusations of "misunderstandings" on what the headphones are designed for. I know how Senn markets these, but do you know why they market them like that? It's precisely to evoke this defence. Also, If these are "made for the studio", how come 99% of the buyers don't work in studios? Did you really believe that the 750+ reviewers on amazon are audio engineers?
 
The idea that these headphones are made for mixing is ridiculous. Why would studios use highly isolating headphones? Closed headphones give inaccurate sound from internal standing waves. Professional studios don't use any headphones to mix, since all headphones give an inaccurate representation of soundstage, and especially reverb. Any professional studio worker knows this.
 
The frequency response shows that they are not all that flat even in their price range:

The massive hump below 50 hz does nothing useful but muddy the sound. The crappiness around 100Hz and 4000Hz is responsible for the thin sound. So you are wrong, it is not my personal taste, it is factually lacking bass (the audible kind, not at 20 hz..) and mids.
Looking at other options in this price range, and you see that they measure (and perform, imo) much better.
 
If you compare it to an hd600 (which is considered to be an extremely neutral and analytical headphone), you see how the hd600 has a bass/midbass "hump". I guess you would conclude that
the hd600 has boosted bass, and is totally not analytical.
But if someone said these things about the hd600 without showing the measurements, I'm sure everyone, including you, would vehemently disagree with them.

 
Surely, no one would ever want to use the hd650 (even more bass heavy than the bass monsters that are the hd600's) in a studio.... except it is a highly suggested choice for mixing when headphones must be used: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm
 
You should tell soundonsound that they "don't understand the studio", LOL.
 
**** you say like "They were not created with your tastes in mind; they were created with the purposes of the studio. And boy do you not understand the studio" is such pretentious ********, and it only serves to stifle legitimate criticism.
 
Oh, and I have heard MANY monitors. I built very flat response speakers (Modula MT). They are much more neutral than the hd280's, and sound better. This is apparently impossible, according to you.

 

[BrownBear]

Well I would argue too that labels don't really mean much in a headphone. The AKG K240 Studio is obviously marketed as a studiophone, but it isn't anywhere near a monitor type of sound, at least in my opinion. Nor, once again in my opinion, are the K240 Studio flat or balanced, or all that detailed or 'accurate'. And yes, I've heard studio monitors as well. I've recorded one, soon to be two albums in a legit studio.
 
Although in all, I think for the most part I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying.

 

[Bossatiger]

Quote:

Did you really believe that the 750+ reviewers on amazon are audio engineers?

No.
 
Quote:

The idea that these headphones are made for mixing is ridiculous. Why would studios use highly isolating headphones?

Never said these were made for a professional studio. A studio that is using this kind of headphone (sub$100) will most likely need an isolating headphone, considering no professional studio will use such a headphone.
 
Quote:

 Closed headphones give inaccurate sound from internal standing waves. Professional studios don't use any headphones to mix, since all headphones give an inaccurate representation of soundstage, and especially reverb. Any professional studio worker knows this.

 
Again, I never said a professional studio would use a headphone to mix. A professional studio will use a speaker monitor, as I have stated multiple instances
 
Quote:

The frequency response shows that they are not all that flat even in their price range:

 
I agree, they are not all that flat. I may have misspoke that they were the flattest you could get for their price range. But they are a true and tried headphone and are still a choice for a low budget, "flatter" response.
 
 
Quote:

If you compare it to an hd600 (which is considered to be an extremely neutral and analytical headphone), you see how the hd600 has a bass/midbass "hump". I guess you would conclude that
the hd600 has boosted bass, and is totally not analytical.
But if someone said these things about the hd600 without showing the measurements, I'm sure everyone, including you, would vehemently disagree with them.

 
No headphone is totally analytical. Some headphones more so than others.
I own a pair of HD600s, and they are on the analytical side even with the audible bass "hump."
 
Quote:

**** you say like "They were not created with your tastes in mind; they were created with the purposes of the studio. And boy do you not understand the studio" is such pretentious ********, and it only serves to stifle legitimate criticism.

Your idea of "legitimate criticism" of the HD280s is ripping on them for sounding bad for music entertainment purposes? The HD280s are not advertised by Sennheiser as legitimate entertainment headphones for consumers. For that, they have HD555s and such, which sure do stomp the HD280s in terms of enjoyability.
 
Quote:

Oh, and I have heard MANY monitors. I built very flat response speakers (Modula MT). They are much more neutral than the hd280's, and sound better. This is apparently impossible, according to you.

Please read my first post again and pause for a moment before you respond. And read your last two sentences and pause again.
 
Better sound =/= Enjoyable sound
An analytical, tremeondously detailed headphone may not be as enjoyable to my preferences as a more natural headphone with slightly boosted bass, forward and smoothed out mids, and non-sparkly highs.
 
Neutral sound =/= Worse sound =/= Not enjoyable sound
Do I really have to explain this?

 

[Eisenhower]

Quote:

No.

 
Then you must agree with my premise that too many people are buying these headphones...
 
Quote:

Never said these were made for a professional studio. A studio that is using this kind of headphone (sub$100) will most likely need an isolating headphone, considering no professional studio will use such a headphone.

Quote:

Again, I never said a professional studio would use a headphone to mix. A professional studio will use a speaker monitor, as I have stated multiple instances

....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossatiger /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
People have got it in their heads that they were "made for the studio" because of its flat response. It was not made for "enjoyable" listening. Sennheiser created a flatter response in order to meet the demands of the studio.

Quote:

They were not created with your tastes in mind; they were created with the purposes of the studio. And boy do you not understand the studio.

 
wow.
and nowhere did you state in "multiple instances" that studios use a speaker monitors.
if you are trying to distinguish between "studios" and "professional studios", just stop, you don't know what you're talking about..
 
Quote:

No headphone is totally analytical. Some headphones more so than others.
I own a pair of HD600s, and they are on the analytical side even with the audible bass "hump."

 
Quote:

You may know what good analytical headphones sound like, but you have no idea what real studio monitors sound like. Have you heard true loudspeaker monitors? The speaker monitors are built with a flat response. As you would put it, those monitors would also make the music sound like **** because they do not give you the enjoyable bass and mids you oh so want from a monitor.

 
hahaha, I like how you assumed I've never heard "what real studio monitors sound like", and then you ask, "have you heard true loudspeaker monitors?"
not the sharpest knife in the drawer, now are we?
 
So you said that hd600s count as being analytical, despite having an audible bass hump, which make them sound enjoyable, while still keeping them acceptable as headphone studio monitor (according to soundonsound magazine, and described by Sennheiser as "the mastering engineers headphone of choice": http://www.sennheiserusa.com/around-the-ear-headphones ). Are you not capable of understanding how this completely contradicts what you have claimed?
 
Quote:

Your idea of "legitimate criticism" of the HD280s is ripping on them for sounding bad for music entertainment purposes? The HD280s are not advertised by Sennheiser as legitimate entertainment headphones for consumers. For that, they have HD555s and such, which sure do stomp the HD280s in terms of enjoyability.

 
You just said that the hd280's are not for "professionals" (despite being marketed as such). Now you say they are not for consumers either, despite the fact that 99% of the people that buy them are consumers. Sennheiser discontinued the hd555's a while ago.
Highly accurate professional speaker monitors ARE ENJOYABLE TO LISTEN TO.  Do you comprehend?
 
Quote:

Please read my first post again and pause for a moment before you respond. And read your last two sentences and pause again.
 
Better sound =/= Enjoyable sound
An analytical, tremeondously detailed headphone may not be as enjoyable to my preferences as a more natural headphone with slightly boosted bass, forward and smoothed out mids, and non-sparkly highs.
 
Neutral sound =/= Worse sound =/= Not enjoyable sound
Do I really have to explain this?

 
Maybe you should read your first post again..
This is a bunch of nonsense, I have never heard anyone say "I enjoy these headphones because they sound really really bad"
The last part makes no sense. Worse sound =/= Not enjoyable sound? So, by using a double negative, you mean Worse sound = Enjoyable sound..
Yeah, I love me an awful sounding headphone like the hd600s. Its completely colored, artificial sound is so god damn enjoyable. I just wish it was even less neutral, I can't stand it when I hear my music the way the artists intends

.
 
You should see my speaker setup, it is ONLY a subwoofer. I LOOOOVE IT

 

[Bossatiger]

Quote:

Quote:
 
if you are trying to distinguish between "studios" and "professional studios", just stop, you don't know what you're talking about..

 
My friend runs a non-professional grade "studio" with a couple sound panels and some budget boards.
 
Quote:

So you said that hd600s count as being analytical, despite having an audible bass hump, which make them sound enjoyable, while still keeping them acceptable as headphone studio monitor (according to soundonsound magazine, and described by Sennheiser as "the mastering engineers headphone of choice": http://www.sennheiserusa.com/around-the-ear-headphones ). Are you not capable of understanding how this completely contradicts what you have claimed?

 
Who said a master engineer cannot have an analytical headphone with an enjoyable bass hump?
 

You just said that the hd280's are not for "professionals" (despite being marketed as such). Now you say they are not for consumers either, despite the fact that 99% of the people that buy them are consumers. Sennheiser discontinued the hd555's a while ago.
 

I call the people who buy them "Prosumers." I bet you know who they are or can at least figure out from the word.
 
Quote:

 
Highly accurate professional speaker monitors ARE ENJOYABLE TO LISTEN TO. Do you comprehend?

They can be enjoyable to listen to and they can also be not enjoyable to listen to. Personally, I find the ribbon tweeters on my mid-fi monitor to be too harsh and revealing and I would rather have a little more bass and less mids.
 
Quote:

This is a bunch of nonsense, I have never heard anyone say "I enjoy these headphones because they sound really really bad"
The last part makes no sense. Worse sound =/= Not enjoyable sound? So, by using a double negative, you mean Worse sound = Enjoyable sound..
Yeah, I love me an awful sounding headphone like the hd600s. Its completely colored, artificial sound is so god damn enjoyable. I just wish it was even less neutral, I can't stand it when I hear my music the way the artists intends

.

A technically better headphone with a flatter frequency and greater accuracy may not be enjoyable.
A technically worse headphone with inaccurate bass, little lower midrange, forward upper midrange and sparkly but not detailed high range can be more enjoyable.
 
I don't think that the HD600s are awful sounding. I don't think that it is completely colored. I don't think that it is artificial (unless you are so literal). I do not wish that it was less neutral, for I think that it has great balance in terms of my personal preference of balance.
 
Artists do not necessarily publish and finalize their music based on their monitors. They do no expect that every consumer has a monitor.
 
Quote:

You should see my speaker setup, it is ONLY a subwoofer. I LOOOOVE IT

I'm hoping that this is sarcastic.

 

[Eisenhower]

Quote:

My friend runs a non-professional grade "studio" with a couple sound panels and some budget boards.

 
I own a "non-professional" studio then too, by your definition.
Studio gear isn't classified as either "professional" or "non-professional". The requirements are the same. Professional studios obviously spend more on their gear. So to say that the "hd280 pro's" are not meant to be used by professionals is really stupid. They are, but they suck, so "professionals" don't use them.
 
Quote:

Who said a master engineer cannot have an analytical headphone with an enjoyable bass hump?

 
You implied this, quite obviously.
 
 
Quote:

I call the people who buy them "Prosumers." I bet you know who they are or can at least figure out from the word.

 
A prosumer is a consumer who buys professional equipment (because they ENJOY THE WAY IT SOUNDS). Prosumer = consumer. So you were wrong then by saying consumers don't buy It.
 
Quote:

They can be enjoyable to listen to and they can also be not enjoyable to listen to. Personally, I find the ribbon tweeters on my mid-fi monitor to be too harsh and revealing and I would rather have a little more bass and less mids.

 
A flat response is a flat response.
 
Quote:

A technically better headphone with a flatter frequency and greater accuracy may not be enjoyable.
A technically worse headphone with inaccurate bass, little lower midrange, forward upper midrange and sparkly but not detailed high range can be more enjoyable.

 
Yeah, some headphones are more enjoyable than others, I know.
I said that the hd280's are not enjoyable (which you apparently agree with) and that they are not accurate (which you also conceded to). So what is your point now? What is your defense of the hd280's?
 
Quote:

I don't think that the HD600s are awful sounding. I don't think that it is completely colored. I don't think that it is artificial (unless you are so literal). I do not wish that it was less neutral, for I think that it has great balance in terms of my personal preference of balance.
 
Artists do not necessarily publish and finalize their music based on their monitors. They do no expect that every consumer has a monitor.

 
You are then conceding that it is possible to make a headphone (e.g. the hd600) which is both neutral enough for mixing, but also sounds enjoyable.
My point is that the hd280's fail in both regards (even with respect to their price), and that people should STOP buying these awful things, and should especially stop defending them by claiming that they sound so bad because they are "revealing studio headphones" or some such nonsense.

 

[Eisenhower]

dbl post

 

[Bossatiger]

Quote:

 
I own a "non-professional" studio then too, by your definition.
Studio gear isn't classified as either "professional" or "non-professional". The requirements are the same. Professional studios obviously spend more on their gear. So to say that the "hd280 pro's" are not meant to be used by professionals is really stupid. They are, but they suck, so "professionals" don't use them.

Sure, you might own a "non-professional" studio.
Yes, studio gear can be classified as "professional" or "non-professional." It might not be blatantly classified, but realistically it is.
 
For example, the ridiculously bad (in my opinion) Beats "Studio" are marketed to consumers as professional studio gear or at least gear that is supposed to reproduce music how the producer wanted them to hear, but I do not see any real professionals use them. Realistically, they are not exactly marketed to real professionals. The requirements are not the same for different headphones to be "studio grade."
 
Quote:

A prosumer is a consumer who buys professional equipment (because they ENJOY THE WAY IT SOUNDS). Prosumer = consumer. So you were wrong then by saying consumers don't buy It.

Not necessarily. This is an overgeneralization of a prosumer. I see many "prosumers" buy non-professional studio equipment not because they are enjoying the sound quality of the headphones but because they need a flatter response (not saying that the headphone with flatter response cannot be enjoyed).
 
Quote:

A flat response is a flat response.

 
No such thing as a completely flat headphone (at least that I know of). Some can get close, but I prefer to use "flatter" response but I also call them "flat" sometimes.
Quote:

Yeah, some headphones are more enjoyable than others, I know.
I said that the hd280's are not enjoyable (which you apparently agree with) and that they are not accurate (which you also conceded to). So what is your point now? What is your defense of the hd280's?

Yes, I agre that the HD280s are not even close to an enjoyable headphone. However, I still point out that they are a competetively accurate headphone in its price range (albeit not THE BEST).
 
Quote:

You are then conceding that it is possible to make a headphone (e.g. the hd600) which is both neutral enough for mixing, but also sounds enjoyable.
My point is that the hd280's fail in both regards (even with respect to their price), and that people should STOP buying these awful things, and should especially stop defending them by claiming that they sound so bad because they are "revealing studio headphones" or some such nonsense.

Yes. The HD600 is neutral enough for mixing, but also sounds enjoyable. I never stated that this was not possible. I have stated that a neutral headphone may or may not sound enjoyable.
The HD280 does not fail in the "mixing regard" for its price point. However, this headphone is aging and I do agree that there are better alternatives. But for now, it remains a still somewhat competitive choice.

 

[SolomonPierce]

I don't think they're particularly musical cans.  People say they're flat, but they're also lifeless and thin.  I can see them for broadcasting / radio use because they're rugged and fine for replicating voices and sounds I'm sure, but as far as music goes, I'd look elsewhere.

 

[bob2299]

Youtube- Dave Rat - Mighty Headphone quest (part 1-5)
 
a $99 headphone is(probably) not going to sound better than a $499 -$599 headphone especially if it's not amped

 

[BrownBear]

Quote:

I don't think they're particularly musical cans.  People say they're flat, but they're also lifeless and thin.  I can see them for broadcasting / radio use because they're rugged and fine for replicating voices and sounds I'm sure, but as far as music goes, I'd look elsewhere.

This.
 
They might be considered flat to some, but I agree completely that lifeless and thin is a great way to describe them. But I think because something is flat doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable. My Monitor 10 is considered flat to many, and I find them very enjoyable. However, I don't enjoy the HD280 at all. I also might argue the rugged aspect a bit too, because I have heard of many cases where the plastic headband begins cracking, and on my pair, the earpads fell apart after only a year of very light use. To me, the Pro/4AA is more rugged, sounds better, and isolates more. All in my opinion, of course.