Schiit's Saga Preamp Impressions
Dec 19, 2018 at 10:03 PM Post #136 of 191
My Saga arrived today. The seller wasn't kidding - the factory packaging hadn't even been opened. A new shipping label was applied to the unopened box and it was sent along to me. Nice!

I have a NOS black-base RCA 6SN7 GTB installed and music playing, which I will leave going overnight. I haven't had but a few minutes to listen so no impressions to post yet. It's dead quiet and the buffer sounds transparent on first listen.

Here's a picture of the Schiit stacked on my desk....

57iTm29.jpg
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 5:36 AM Post #137 of 191
Update: I've had music playing through the Saga's tube buffer for about 12 hours so far and as I sit here listening (beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro headphone) I'm hearing subtle but discernible differences. I'll wait until I've had more time to listen before going into detail. What I can say is that I'm finding the variety of music on the current playlist (Steely Dan, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Eagles, others) more engaging compared to passive (buffer bypass). Whatever it is taking shape here I like it. A lot! :)

It's worth noting that I don't find the passive mode any less enjoyable than the buffered signal. As I stated in my first post in this thread I'm very pleased with my headphone rig. The tube hybrid buffer merely adds to my enjoyment using this system by adding a different presentation for the music.

This was a very good decision - that much is becoming clear. Tomorrow I'll have a GE 6SN7 GTB and a black base RCA 6SN7 GT on hand. I also ordered a Tung-Sol reissue 6SN7 GTB, an RCA 7N7, and a &n& to 6SN7 converter, and I have the LISST that shipped with my Saga. I'll roll through these options once the Christmas season slows down and I've a good bit of listening time with the RCA 6SN7 GTB currently installed.

That's it for now...
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 8:49 PM Post #138 of 191
^ RCA 6SN7 GTB and New Tungsol are the ones that I highly prefer when budget is taken account. Cost no object, it's definitely the RCA VT231 for me. As for passive, I like its critical listening abilities but I prefer more bite to the presentation so I use the tube mode exclusively.
 
Dec 22, 2018 at 5:57 AM Post #139 of 191
The RCA 6SN7 GT that I purchased, by its physical form and orange silk screen label would seem to indicate that this Tobe is a 6SN7 GTB. Its sound, though, is a near match for descriptions of the GT variant. Either way, it's sounds extraordinary! More comments once I've had some dedicated time to listen.

I also have a couple of triode matched, new reissue 6SN7 tubes on the way - a Tungsol and an Electro-Harmonics.
 
Dec 24, 2018 at 4:26 AM Post #140 of 191
The RCA 6SN7 GT has has become (or is being perceived as) a touch warmer after running music through it for 24 or so hours. The difference is subtle but discernible. IMHO this tube provides a great listening experience. Imaging, instrument separation, and soundstage width & depth were quite good to begin with. These aspects haven't really changed. This tube softens treble very slightly and mid bass is ever so slightly elevated. This is where the warmth is coming from. Dynamic range is on par with the passive output (Mimby->Jotunheim->beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro w/ balanced pads) but dynamic are perceived as improved (perhaps just a hair exaggerated, in a good way). Harmonic content seems no different than passive mode. Though quite subtle wherever perceived as different from the passive mode these real or perceived changes are all for the better when a warm, dynamic presentation is preferred.

I received the reissue Tungsol 6SN7 on Saturday, swapped it into the Saga, and left music playing through for more than 24 hours. My initial listening once the tube was up to operating temperature was just for a couple songs, and I really didn't notice anything different save perhaps for a very slight 'sweetening' of the upper frequencies (again, very slight) without losing losing detail or amplitude. It seemed to me that it otherwise sounded like the passive mode. Listening this evening I am hearing some similarities to the RCA 6SN7 GT in terms of dynamics, imaging, separation, and soundstage. I am not hearing elevated mid bass. Rather, bass texture and definition seem improved - much preferred to the RCA's slight mid bass boost. I'm not perceiving any loss of detail whatsoever. Some details seem to be better defined. Tonality is so similar to passive mode that I'm not hearing any difference. Harmonic content is a bit more pronounced (this is likely an artifact of tube distortion - a plus in my book). I assume that it will change a bit further but I feel like most of what I may expect from this tube is already present. So far this is my favorite 6SN7 tube in the Saga.

I should receive the EH 6SN7 reissue tube, as well as a fully tested, strong RCA 7N7 (a VT231 equivalent I believe) with balanced triodes, along with a Woo Audio 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter, in the mail tomorrow. I am gone through Christmas day so I'll post more when I'm back at my desktop. Once I've given these tubes time and more complete impressions I'll give the LISST solid state 'tube' a go and and see how it sounds.
 
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Dec 24, 2018 at 10:32 AM Post #141 of 191
Not to throw a wet blanket on the tube rolling going on here but... If anyone doesn't know, this is a push pull buffer stage with the tube on one side and the transistor on the other. My thinking is that any audible differences are departures from the Saga's astoundingly low distortion and are caused by the chosen tube not being as well matched to the transistor it's paired with as the original ones Jason chose to use. It's fine if you like it, but it's a strange circuit and it bothers me mentally to be messing with it too much. That said, I do have a vintage RCA in mine that I put in before I took a close look at the board and realized what the circuit was. I must no be a golden ear because I don't think I really hear anything different. I may just stock up on the original Russian tubes as they are currently available for around $4.
 
Dec 26, 2018 at 5:19 PM Post #143 of 191
In my opinion, in order for a component to respond to a change in the power cord, it has to have either a poorly designed power supply or poor PSRR in the amplifier/buffer stage(s). Since I believe that Jason knows what he is doing, I doubt it would make any difference. But no, I haven't tried.
 
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Dec 26, 2018 at 5:27 PM Post #144 of 191
Anybody have any success upgrading the power cord with the Saga?

Thanks.

In my opinion, in order for a component to respond to a change in the power cord, it has have either a poorly designed power supply or poor PSRR in the amplifier/buffer stage(s). Since I believe that Jason knows what he is doing, I doubt it would make any difference. But no, I haven't tried.

I concur.
 
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Dec 27, 2018 at 4:31 AM Post #145 of 191
Not to throw a wet blanket on the tube rolling going on here but... If anyone doesn't know, this is a push pull buffer stage with the tube on one side and the transistor on the other. My thinking is that any audible differences are departures from the Saga's astoundingly low distortion and are caused by the chosen tube not being as well matched to the transistor it's paired with as the original ones Jason chose to use. It's fine if you like it, but it's a strange circuit and it bothers me mentally to be messing with it too much. That said, I do have a vintage RCA in mine that I put in before I took a close look at the board and realized what the circuit was. I must no be a golden ear because I don't think I really hear anything different. I may just stock up on the original Russian tubes as they are currently available for around $4.

I agree with you for the most part (based on what you've posted regarding the Saga's hybrid tube buffer circuit), and my observations of the various 6SN7 tubes I have on hand in the now as heard in the Saga aren't necessarily at odds with your findings. All audio circuits employing vacuum tubes introduce distortion, for better or worse. Unless that distortion is objectively unpleasant it effects on the source audio will be perceived differently from lister to listener.

I'm certainly no golden ear but I am able to make observations and comparisons, even subtle differences, when compared against the same signal chain with the Saga's buffer bypassed (I don't use the Saga's level control BTW - I'm using the Saga for source selection, and for its buffer as an optional sound).

Generally speaking, what I'm finding is that imaging, staging, dynamics, tonality, and detail may be slightly affected by the tube used - again, for better or worse. The only significant changes are those that detract from the passive mode (same signal chain otherwise). If perceived detail is decreased, if tonality is negatively impacted anywhere, if dynamic range seems to flatten out to any degree, etc. with any given tube then it'll never see use. If a tube yields no discernable difference from passive mode then I've no interest in using that tube. If a tube affects the source music in a way that yields an enjoyable listening experience then It'll see further use if or until that perception changes in any way that detracts from my enjoyment of the source.

I trust my ears, even in their aged state (now in my early 50's). What my ears are telling me is that the differences from tube to tube in the Saga are quite subtle (one new production Russian made reissue Tungsol 6SN7GTB, one new production Russian made Electro-Harmonix 6SN7, one GE 6SN7GTB, several RCA 6SN7GTB's, and one RCA 7N7 local base - electrical equivalent of a RCA VT231 / 6SN7GT).

Generally speaking I'm finding the vintage 6SN7GTB tubes I have on hand to be less desirable than the Tungsol reissue 6SN7GTB and the RCA 7N7, as treble seems a bit smoothed in a way that blurs detail (this is, once again, a very subtle difference - one that has taken a good bit of listening to discern). The Tungsol doesn't have enough hours on it to draw any final conclusions. I haven't put any hours on the Electro-Harmonix yet so no no observations.

The 7N7 is a standout so far in that nothing is perceived as negatively affected, imaging and soundstage are perceived as improved slightly, treble is 'sweeter' sounding without sounding overly smooth or any perceived loss of detail, and bass seems to have slightly improved texture on many tracks. The overall difference from passive mode with the 7N7 is pleasant with no perceived negative impact on the source music. More listening time is needed to verify my findings so far but this one is the most pleasing listen so far.

These differences may be attributed to distortion, and others may or may not hear the same things if given an opportunity to listen to this signal chain with this tube installed. At the end of the day all of this is subjective.

Cheers! :)
 
Dec 27, 2018 at 11:53 PM Post #148 of 191
With a set-up like this i probably would use the Saga as volume leveller instead.
Did you try that set-up?

I did today, and it works very well. I have some cables on the way so that I can wire my near field monitors to one of the Saga's stereo outputs. I like things as they are currently but the monitors are currently connected to the Jotunheim's balanced preamp output. That's unnecessarily complicating that signal chain.

I have a manually controlled audio routing switch that I can use to A/B between Saga>monitors and Saga>Jotunheim>monitors signal chains. I can decide which way to go from there.

ETA: I now have my powered near field monitors connected directly to one of the Saga's parallel stereo outputs and I much prefer this to having the monitors connected to the Jotunheim's preamp outputs. This way I can use the Saga's Level control to set output level of the monitors. I have the Sensitivity controls on the monitors set to the maximum output level I wish to use so the entire sweep of the Saga's Level control is useful. The monitors are on their own power strip and I use its power switch to turn the monitors on and off. When using headphones I set the Saga's Level control full clockwise and use the Jotunheim's Level control - I prefer its finer control when using headphones.
 
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Dec 31, 2018 at 6:20 PM Post #149 of 191
Tubes schiit sell are russian including the tungsol. This is the tube we are speaking of. An old tungsol would be made in the USA and cost 100$ or more and be a rediculous investment.

The stock tubes Schiit supplies with the Saga really hold back the performance of the preamp. With stock tubes in my Saga passive mode sounds better than active. The good news is the Saga scales well with better tubes. I am currently using a $70 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" that transforms the active tube buffer so it sounds more transparent and stages better than passive mode. The difference is not subtle. Using the Sylvania tube in active mode the Saga sounds better than $1200 preamps I have compared it to.
 
Dec 31, 2018 at 6:37 PM Post #150 of 191
The stock tubes Schiit supplies with the Saga really hold back the performance of the preamp. With stock tubes in my Saga passive mode sounds better than active. The good news is the Saga scales well with better tubes. I am currently using a $70 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" that transforms the active tube buffer so it sounds more transparent and stages better than passive mode. The difference is not subtle. Using the Sylvania tube in active mode the Saga sounds better than $1200 preamps I have compared it to.

I have to agree - find a tube that improves the perceived sound of the active buffer and it can enhance the listening experience. I hear it more as the sum of subtle changes that provide a 'euphoric' quality to the source music. Though I can hear the difference instantly (RCA 7N7 tube) I still perceive the difference as subtle, and this is a good thing IMO as the source already sounds fantastic. What I perceive as a subtle difference is, to me, worth well more than the Saga's price tag.

Either way this stuff is entirely subjective (regarding the perceived differences and whether they are for the better or worse). It's up to each listener to decide for themselves. Me? I think the Saga is fantastic!

Cheers! :)
 

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