Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Nov 2, 2023 at 5:55 PM Post #129,811 of 169,998
For the tube lovers out there, I just binge watched All The Light We Cannot See on Netflix, great story, great acting but....take a close look at some of the tube gear that appears throughout the four part miniseries and maybe you will see some discrepancies. This is a powerful movie that shows the importance of radio during WW2, based on a Pulitzer Prize winning novel. https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/ne...nnot-see-official-trailer-netflix/vi-AA1ji0Ia
 
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Nov 2, 2023 at 6:17 PM Post #129,813 of 169,998
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And...tube burn-in begins. lol.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 6:19 PM Post #129,814 of 169,998
Nov 2, 2023 at 6:28 PM Post #129,815 of 169,998
Hi @dstrimbu
I was interested to read of your very positive experience with the GAIA isolators. I'm wondering if you or any other Schiitheads out there, have tried or purchased Townshend Podiums which de-couple the speakers from the floor?
Here's a vid. with the late Max Towshend explainIng his product.



That's interesting. One can experiment with a variety of isolators. I have some Vibrapods and I will try them.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 6:50 PM Post #129,817 of 169,998
Digital cables carry a clock signal, which in many ways can be treated as analog. As in, it's not a simple 'did the bits get there intact' question.

Cables not made to the correct characteristic impedance may adversely affect jitter and this can be measured. Though it's not something that one needs to spend lots on, just make sure you're getting one that is made tightly to spec. Van Damme and Mogami both have ones I've verified to be very close
Agreed.

For context, I'm using a Pi2AES as my streamer, and have been using a Blue Jeans digital AES cable (3 foot; 110 Ohm; Belden), so I'm pretty confident that my AES cable should be within spec.
The BNC cable is a Straight Wire INFO-LINK (0.5m).

I had to take an advanced DSP class during my time in undergrad for ECE (not my favorite class lol), so I'm no stranger of the analog nature of digital signals.
Still, I honestly didn't think I'd notice any differences at all considering both should be "within spec."
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 6:54 PM Post #129,818 of 169,998
Digital signals are really just shifts in voltage levels. They are in essence analog.

[ ⚠️ Oversimplifications Ahead ⚠️ ]

Let's say you've got a USB signal, which uses a 3.3V logic level. It's a common misconception that 0V would mean a '0' and 3.3V would mean a '1,' and that the changes between the two would be instantaneous and pretty much make your signal look like a perfect square wave.

That's what they teach you in high-school level computer labs, anyway. But that's not how it actually works.

Instead, anything below a certain voltage threshold (for a 3.3V logic signal usually somewhere between 0.4V and 0.8V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '0,' and everything above a certain voltage threshold (usually somewhere between 2.0V and 2.4V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '1.'

For any voltages between those two thresholds it's up to the implementation details of your chip and/or straight-up dumb luck with whatever interpretation you'll end up with. So you really don't want to live in that voltage range of your signal, veeery bad ju-ju.

But here's the thing… Those logic signals are being generated by physical objects that are subject to the same laws of physics as all your analog electronics are. Switching between logic low and logic high isn't instantaneous. That switch takes a little bit of time. And during that time, the voltage will rise gradually, not instantaneously. There will be a bit of slew. Maybe even some bounce. Depending on the capabilities of your voltage source, there can be droops and sags along the way, too.

Usually, that isn't really all that big of a problem. If you take some care to only ever sample your logic level voltages after it had enough time to settle in properly, you'll be golden. And in a lot of applications (like networking, for example) there are error handling or error correction procedures built right in to the different protocol layers.

🍑 But…

Not in audio, as most digital audio signals that travel through your cables are unidirectional, meaning the stream goes from device A to device B, but device B has no way of calling back to device A with a pretty-please to re-send something because it got corrupted along the way.

And corrupted, things can get quite easily.

That nice and chunky transformer that you're routing your USB cable right past could be inducing a low "baseline" voltage of 0.2V or 0.3V in your data lines, nudging you closer to that lower end of that bad ju-ju range you want to stay out of.
The constant changes in voltage level in your clock line can induce tiny spikes in your data lines that run right along your clock line.
A cable's impedance (change in resistance as a function of signal level) changes with its length. The longer a cable gets, the higher its impedance. The higher the impedance, the harder it gets for your chips to quickly switch between voltages. As a result, your slew rate goes up. Which, in turn, could mean that you're running the risk of sampling your data signal before it had time to settle in, and you could end up measuring a '1' when it should be a '0', and vice versa.

…just to name a few.

In audio streams, occasionally reading a '0' where there should be a '1,' or reading a '1' where there should be a '0,' isn't that big of a deal. Nothing breaks, the stream won't cut out, and your speakers won't blow up. In data applications like networking, misinterpreting even just one single bit can mean that your file is corrupted and unusable. But in audio, the worst that will happen is that your DAC momentarily outputs a voltage level for that particular sample that's slightly too high or slightly too low. You're unlikely to even consciously hear that error.

But if these errors happen somewhat often and constantly, as in a handful of times per millisecond, you are ending up with a lot of audio samples that are off by a little bit. Or as we audio enthusiasts would call it: Distortion.

And so in an attempt to somewhat reduce the likelihood of these logic level interpretation errors to sneak in, you can help your gear out by using non-crappy digital interconnects. Pick one that is as short as you can get away with, that's properly shielded, and that tries to somewhat reduce contact resistance.
In short: Pick something that's adequate for medium to high speed data transfer rates like a good printer cable, and not just a Dollar-fifty cable from your friendly Dollar Store, and you should be golden. The same goes for other kinds of digital interconnects.

Buy that kilo-bucks interconnect cable made from just the finest strands of pure-gold angel hair if it makes your synapses tingle. It's a hobby, and those audiophile digital interconnect manufacturers need to get their kids through college just as much as the next guy.

But objectively, dropping a hundred-something bucks on a 50cm long "audiophile" USB cable won't get you any better results than a decent quality 10 or 20 bucks printer cable would.

Digital audio interconnects absolutely matter. But that threshold to when you enter la-la-land is considerably lower than a lot of audiophiles would like to think.
Thank you for the discussion! I work in the semiconductor/computing industry, so I'm no stranger to this fact but it's always great discussion for the wider forum.

I was just surprised to notice a subtle, but audible, difference considering both cables are quality. :)
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 7:25 PM Post #129,819 of 169,998
Hi @dstrimbu
I was interested to read of your very positive experience with the GAIA isolators. I'm wondering if you or any other Schiitheads out there, have tried or purchased Townshend Podiums which de-couple the speakers from the floor?
Hi @Headcase88 - I did read about the Townshend Podiums in The Absolute Sound, where Neil Gader gave them a very positive recommendation. I looked into them, and two things caused me to look elsewhere - first, the size of the podium baseplate would mess with the placement of my right main speaker, and secondly... the cost. I set the concept aside for a while, and then I saw a presentation by Dave Morrison of IsoAcoustics, with a live comparison of two pairs of Focal floorstanders - one with the stock feet, and one with GAIA isolators.

I bought the GAIA's the next day, and saved a bit more than $1,200 versus the size 3 Townshends. This being said, the Podiums are really cool and I may own a pair someday. :)
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 7:32 PM Post #129,820 of 169,998
I was just surprised to notice a subtle, but audible, difference considering both cables are quality. :)
It's cool, isn't it? I tell people that I can hear the difference between cables, and they generally scoff.

Then I play a well recorded track, swap a cable or two, and play it again.

Gets 'em every time. <G>

p.s. - I guess we're lucky to have systems that can resolve to a level that lets differences in cables be heard.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 7:34 PM Post #129,821 of 169,998
Hi @Headcase88 - I did read about the Townshend Podiums in The Absolute Sound, where Neil Gader gave them a very positive recommendation. I looked into them, and two things caused me to look elsewhere - first, the size of the podium baseplate would mess with the placement of my right main speaker, and secondly... the cost. I set the concept aside for a while, and then I saw a presentation by Dave Morrison of IsoAcoustics, with a live comparison of two pairs of Focal floorstanders - one with the stock feet, and one with GAIA isolators.

I bought the GAIA's the next day, and saved a bit more than $1,200 versus the size 3 Townshends. This being said, the Podiums are really cool and I may own a pair someday. :)

Vibrapods should also work as well as these RTOM Moongel damper pads - LINK.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 8:48 PM Post #129,822 of 169,998
But you could add inch-thick copper base plates, "single crystal wire," gold-plated knobs and VU meters with multi-color LED backlights!
Somebody here understands me!
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 9:46 PM Post #129,823 of 169,998
p.s. - I guess we're lucky to have systems that can resolve to a level that lets differences in cables be heard.
And some are even luckier having ears that can resolve the level of a system's ability to resolve the differences that cables make. :wink:
 
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Nov 2, 2023 at 10:04 PM Post #129,825 of 169,998
For the tube lovers out there, I just binge watched All The Light We Cannot See on Netflix, great story, great acting but....take a close look at some of the tube gear that appears throughout the four part miniseries and maybe you will see some discrepancies. This is a powerful movie that shows the importance of radio during WW2, based on a Pulitzer Prize winning novel. https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/ne...nnot-see-official-trailer-netflix/vi-AA1ji0Ia
thanks for the suggestion will check it out!
 

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