[Oveja Negra]

Damn, I just got the news about Ryuichi Sakamoto passing away. RIP

 

[roadcykler]

Aiml

It's about keeping out the aimless riffraff electrons - that can pollute our single malt copper extrusions. The crass party-crashing electrons from that insidious 3-letter agency, the RFI. We set a trap - to put them on the slippery path to ground before they get to our whiskey, our ears.

Aimless riffraff electrons are the worst.

 

[Scott Kramer]

Live

Fantastic render... very accurate on all the mechanisms on stage 0 (ground support tower / orbital launch mount). Hard to believe this is happening very soon!

 

[Daniel Johnston]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to say with this, but I'm happy to hear that your Roon experience is quite a lot more satisfying than mine is.
That's how it should be, after all.

The nature of such a multi-platform beast is that it runs well in some environments, and less so in others. It's entirely possible that Roon runs flawlessly under Linux. At least I hope it runs well under Windows, since it's a .net application and all that.

But on macOS and iOS, Roon is a complete mess. On the mac that I'm sitting at right now, I've started the Roon remote this morning, about eight hours ago. I've streamed Qobuz for about six out of those eight hours. When you start a fresh instance of the Roon remote on a mac, you're looking at roughly 1.2GB of active memory use. After the eight hours of use, it currently sits at 2.8GB—and it will just keep growing.

The core runs on a headless M1 mac mini in my living room. It'll stay at the 1.2GB mark of memory use — as long as it's just serving music to my remotes. As soon as I use the core to actually play any music to my main two-channel rig, it'll start growing in memory footprint as well.

It's entirely possible that the leak isn't in Roon's own code, but in their or Qobuz' streaming API implementation. But it's there, it has been for years, and it's seriously annoying.

And to top things off, regardless of whether or not you play anything at all, it'll just crash on you for no reason after a few days. Because of the memory leak, I restart my remotes once a day anyway, so it doesn't really matter all that much. But the core—and it doesn't matter if I use it to actually play anything or whether I just let it sit there and use it merely as a core serving the library to remotes—will crash once or twice a week.

And this, too, has been like this for years.


I think we've discussed this before, if memory serves. So for all our benefit, I won't rehash all my arguments.

Just this much: I think—and please correct me if I'm wrong, the last thing I want to do is to put words in your mouth—you may have misunderstood my point about the software side of things not being all that complicated.

Of course things get quite a bit more complicated if you try to copy Roon's laundry list of features. The fact that Roon Labs themselves seem to struggle a bit to stay ahead of their own "mess" (not everyone agrees with me on that point, of course, hence the quotes) proves your own point perfectly.

My point was, however, that a theoretical competing product shouldn't be this complex in the first place. Roon tries to be everything for everybody, and I think that's part and parcel of why their product isn't as stable and polished (on all platforms) as I think it could and should be.

Considerably reduce that complexity, however, and you're looking at a product that's actually not all that complex to create and to maintain.

That shouldn't mean that you'd have to give up many of the features that you enjoy about Roon right now. If you approach the basic architecture of your project in a smart way from day 1, and then stick to it over the lifetime of the project instead of wildly adding features left and right without all that much thought just to appease the forces that be (like the sales folks that love endless feature lists, like users that can't help but keep asking for new and usually exceedingly random and/or edge-case stuff, or like every software engineer's worst nightmare: their own itch to start something new because that's more fun and exciting than that annoying grind we all know so well that is the continuing maintenance of existing code and features), you can to a meaningful degree prevent the thing from getting so bloated that its complexity eventually outgrows your team's abilities.
Strict modularity is one way.
A lean approach to your multi-platform architecture and the avoidance (where possible) of third-party frameworks (we debated both of these points in the past) is another.
And then there's that one thing that every software architect and engineer I've ever worked with, regardless of their background or level of experience, has struggled with by far the most: There should always be a thousand no's for every yes. Keep your stuff simple. Always.

I agree with running the Roon core on macOS. It is not seamless or easy as Linux/windows. Even the iOS remotes are buggy for me sometimes.

My suggestion is to ditch macOS. It’s not worth the hassle. I bought a QNAP NAS and I don’t have to reboot period. I have a mixture of DLNA, RAAT, Airplay, and extensions. Zero issues.

Roon isn’t going to keep up with the macOS upgrade lane as fervently as Linux/Rock since they offer their own server.

 

[artur9]

I just do not under stand the fascination with ROON. ...

I do not need Roon to organize how I listen. ...

Does Roon "improve" the quality of a selection? I do not see how it could. It is digital and it should just play what it is "fed". Some will try to claim other wise but nope. Bits is bits and you can not hear bitses. Either the recording is good or not. And now the litmus test of litmus tests:

...

I use Roon for one or two reasons. TL/DR: If you don't need a distributed playback system and don't listen to much classical, Roon might be overkill, or not. Roon Radio is fun!

One, I need/want a distributed whole house music system and Sonos failed completely at that for me. So, they're out and they're supposedly the best. I tried to roll my own and no one in the household could work it but me and the individual devices were kind of glitchy - doesn't help that my primary location is very hostile to WiFi. I ended up rolling my own with Linn's software and devices (OpenHome, Linn Akurate, BubbleUPNP) and that worked fairly well but Linn stuff is a bit price prohibitive (that is, expensive).

Roon has worked better than anything else in this application, even using the same "glitchy" hardware I had before.

Next reason is that my primary music is classical and no other system catalogs classical in a useable way. Many "catalogers" are schizophrenic about the artist/performer/composer/ensemble categorization, let alone the works/composition/movement categorization. For example, ripping a CD one track might have Beethoven as the artist, while the next has Joshua Bell and the one after that Boston Symphony Orchestra. With Roon, I don't have to spend hours fixing every single CD of classical music I rip.

Lastly, my wife keeps asking why she can't have copies of music on her phone. We don't use Apple Music because of (a) classical, again and (b) it constantly replaces local copies with cloud copies not even necessarily from the same album even when you tell it not to.

 

[Daniel Johnston]

I just do not under stand the fascination with ROON. But then I tend to hit "Random" on my CD players and if I were to start using my computer for the music on it I would do the same. If I wanted to hear just the Beatles? I just type in "Beatles" in the search on my laptop and...*GASP* There they are. Listening to music on the interwebs is the same. I have "stations" on SiriusXM, Pandora and Amazon. I hit play and they play the genre/station/artist I easily selected my self.

But what about bit rate(s) and codec(s) and Roonacy etc.? I do not care. Does it sound like music or not? I still have MusicBee on this here laptop and it works fine. I tried Roon during a Denon provided 3 month trial. I cancelled after two months because in truth, I found it without merit. For me. I do NOT require Roon to catalog (it did no better than MusicBee) on my laptop with finding artwork songs that were missing title/artist. Oh...I do not have "Roon (sp)endpoints". Wait! I have devices that play with out Roon so they might be called...Ummm...Powered speakers? Internet Radios? But...but Roon is not controlling them. Nope. I am.

I do not need Roon to organize how I listen. I do not need Roon on my fApple Fone to use CarPlay or if I had it, fApple Music. Why would I? How hard is it to plug the phone into my truck or car and use CarPlay? The answer is that it is NOT hard at all. It opens and off I go sans any roonacy. But what about on my motorcycle? I just BlooToof in to my helmet and choose the music service/station/genre/artist and BAZINGA -BAZUNGA! I hit "PLAY".

If I travel and want access to my music on my hard drive do I bemoan not having Roon? Why would I? I can get to all the music I have by using the fApple Fone or my tablet to *GASP* play SiriusXM, Pandora and Amazon Music. I choose the station/artist/genre/Whatever the intercourse I want and hit "PLAY" all by myself!

I get it. For some they like Roon because they like it. Perhaps they like saying "endpoint" or another buzzzzzzWoRd, LOL! They like the "control" of it all. I have the same control that I need without it. It is like the old Squeezbox that you could use to access your home music when not at home. Ummmm...BFD? I have hard copies at home for when I want my hard copies for playback. I pick a CD and play it and I have favorites on hand and the rest of them are in those anti-frAudiophile devices called CD Mega-Changers, LOL! I have records too and fortunately they are RoonProof. I have to actually be there to pick out a record and put it on the 'table.

Does Roon "improve" the quality of a selection? I do not see how it could. It is digital and it should just play what it is "fed". Some will try to claim other wise but nope. Bits is bits and you can not hear bitses. Either the recording is good or not. And now the litmus test of litmus tests:

Does Roon make you Slap-Fappy-Happy? If yes. Good or you! If no, then welcome to my reality based on if you deem some thing that just does what you tell it to do instead of you just picking what you want by yourself without another interface in there and it makes sense to do it your self with out paying to still do it your sekf with out interfacing with another interface. 'n' sheit.

In some ways Roon resembles the fAd copy approach used by MQA and beings like Darth Fremer and his Sadawan Lavorgna in that many people feel they need it. That would be the S-F-H (Slap-Fappy-Happy) factor. I doubt they need it but I do not doubt that they like it. Good for them! I just do not understand why but then I think much of it is subjective and the objective is blended in there. I tried it. Was I fair to Roon? As fair a my needs go which it did not meet.

Besides, "fair" is where you buy cotton candy and caramel apples then ride the tilt-a-hurl.
I hope SYN is a success for Schiit. Especially so for music. Like most things, including "Roon", it will be based upon a subjective process by individuals. I think I would enjoy it for music but at the moment I have that covered for ME but I have learned that in audio, "never say never". Except for MQA.

ORT Thee Grumpy

Roon is the best way I’ve found so far to integrate my library and streaming library (Qobuz). I’ve used audirvana, iTunes, Plex, and a host of freebies over the years.

I have a pair of KEF LS50II wireless in my living room. Simple, elegant, and sound great. No wires running everywhere. Very clean. Ditto with my Naim MuSo in the basement.

Roon is not for everybody, but it does as you say make me SFH. But, unless you buy their ready made server (Nucleus), DIY will be involved.

 

[artur9]

...

Considerably reduce that complexity, however, and you're looking at a product that's actually not all that complex to create and to maintain.

... If you approach the basic architecture of your project in a smart way from day 1, and then stick to it over the lifetime of the project instead of wildly adding features left and right without all that much thought just to appease the forces that be ... you can to a meaningful degree prevent the thing from getting so bloated that its complexity eventually outgrows your team's abilities.
...

You need to talk to my current coworkers. I have never worked anywhere where the concept of a product feature was so completely misunderstood. And it's not just the coders, either.

 

[OldRoadToad]

Edit: I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally hate the multi-quote "feature".

ORT

 

[OldRoadToad]

Roon is the best way I’ve found so far to integrate my library and streaming library (Qobuz). I’ve used audirvana, iTunes, Plex, and a host of freebies over the years.

I have a pair of KEF LS50II wireless in my living room. Simple, elegant, and sound great. No wires running everywhere. Very clean. Ditto with my Naim MuSo in the basement.

Roon is not for everybody, but it does as you say make me SFH. But, unless you buy their ready made server (Nucleus), DIY will be involved.

I seem to recall the J River used to be a favorite as I would see it at audio shows. I like easy so I have Denon's HEOS and am about 5 or so years into owning it and like it very much. It is easy. I have speakers through out the house and it works great. Last year I gave a new Denon AVR to my brother and his wife along with 2 wireless HEOS speakers and am hoping to get out to my younger sisters home this year to do the same thing for her and her husband.

If it is easy enough for me, you know it is easy, LOL! My brother was confused by the previous Onkyo setup and HEOS is much easier/better for them. His wife likes it a LOT. No receiver is needed for their stand alone speakers and I will be setting up some for a couple of friends soon. And it just occurred to me that I probably already said this somewhere here. Sorry about that. I will leave this up in case I am wrong. Again.

I have a friend that raves about Bluesound and I am happy for him too! All the best to you, my friend!

ORT

 

[Ripper2860]

I used JRiver for years and really liked it for use with my local library. AFAIK, JRiver does not integrate streaming services so if you're looking for a product that just serves up say Rockabilly from Qobuz and Tidal along with your local music collection, you're out of luck. For me, JRiver required a bit of library maintenance (especially with artwork). JRiver now seems to be moving to more of a local audio and video management and playback system and I prefer to use Plex for video. Different horses for different courses.

 

[corndog71]

Edit: I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally hate the multi-quote "feature".

ORT

I struggled with it before but I think I figured it out. Quote, quote, reply.

 

[artur9]

I seem to recall the J River used to be a favorite as I would see it at audio shows.

I remember those days. It is still very popular, iiuc. I never considered it because when I first looked at ripping, it was Windoozy only. Unix makes more sense to me, or Mac. I don't recall if OSX was out yet.... Also seemed to be more targeted at movies then. It was very nice to look at, which I did longingly.

 

[zexk]

Has anyone ever sent stuff to Schiit for out of warranty repair to replace small things like RCA jacks or switches? How much was the total service charge? I just bought a used Asgard 2 that has a bad gain switch (makes static noise in one channel if I wiggle it while in low gain). I also want them to replace the RCA jacks since the jacks on this unit are heavily oxidized, and I am somewhat OCD when it comes to gold plated RCAs. I emailed Schiit about estimate, but they couldn't tell me until a tech takes a look at the unit. Since I have to cover shipping both ways and repair starts at 30$, I want to see whether if it's feasible to send it in.

 

[1Audiophool]

Roon is great if 1) you want seemless integration of streaming and a local library, 2) you really want to deep dive into artist bios and album info., 3) you really wish to explore related genres and artists.

(I know there are others with good recommendation engines, but Roon Radio is one of the finest, IMHO. I can listen to one album and let Roon Radio play their recommendations for weeks and never skip a track. )

To each their own. There are many ways to enjoy music - some just wish to do a deeper dive and integrate an existing ripped or downloaded library along with streaming. And that's not even including the multi room streaming capability.

+1 for Roon radio!! It really is excellent…I kept my subscription to Spotify for a long time simply because of its music discovery but Roon/Qobuz is much better.

I’ve not had issues with Roon either. I’ve run it off a super cheap ($199) HP laptop that I got on Black Friday 3 years ago to use solely as a Roon core. Has worked like a charm…learned later that a laptop probably isn’t the best/cleanest music source. I’m working on updating that…

Hans Beekhuyzen put out a good tutorial about some of Roons features a few days ago..

 

[LobalWarming]

This thread found SYN and turned to ROOin. We need a big shiny Urd to perk things up.