Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:03 PM Post #104,416 of 155,125
Are these correct for the Magni+/Heretic?
1669854365031.png
On the website for Magni + it stated as: Gain: -8dB, 0dB, or 14dB, selectable via front switch
On the website for Magni Heretic is stated: Gain: -10dB, 0dB, or 15dB, selectable via front switch

?
5x ~ 14dB
6x ~ 15.6dB
0.35x = -9.12dB
1x = 0dB

IMO, a dB or so gain-wise amounts to tiny, tiny, tiny nudge of the volume knob
 
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:09 PM Post #104,418 of 155,125
@Jason Stoddard Really enjoyed the latest chapter, thank you!

Do you think you have a chapter's worth of collateral damage to report on? As in drivers blown, fires started, wires melted, breakers tripped, that sort of thing.

Whenever I think about just measuring stuff myself or even getting into electronics I immediately worry about breaking stuff, but I'm wondering how common that even is.
 
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:10 PM Post #104,419 of 155,125
2022, Chapter 15
The Search for Unity


If you believe the chatter on the intarwebs, Magni didn’t really measure that well until it’s 7th birthday—that is, the 3+ and Heresy generation.

Heck, even I believed it.

I mean, because of this belief, I worked really really really hard to get Magni 3+ to where it was, performance-wise—and I wasn’t unsuccessful. In terms of performance into low impedance loads, it absolutely smokes the Magni 3, or any other previous Magnis.

But, in the process of developing Magni+, in the middle of doing literally a baker’s dozen variations on the Magni formula, I discovered a lot of things.

One thing was how wrong I was about Magni’s performance through the generations.
Another thing is how one of the best-measuring Magnis went completely unrecognized.
And yet another is how I really like a particular amp topology for Magni—and why it’ll continue into the future, even if it misses a few dB on ultimate THD+N.

And it all began with me picking up an old Magni 1 and running it on the APx555 for laughs—just to see how bad it was. Because it had to be bad. Everyone said it was bad. How could everyone be wrong? Plus, it was designed in a garage. Hell, the one I picked up had been sitting on a shelf in my office for years, was covered with dust and had the serial number 000002 on it.

Except this is what happened:



Actually not terrible! Almost -100dB THD+N. Maybe not the be-all-end-all, but not bad!

And remember: Magni 1 had fixed x5 gain. As in, it only had high gain. Most amps measure worse at high gain. Especially simple amps like Magni 1.

So I made a quick resistor change to take Magni 1 to x1 gain (low gain). And this happened:



That’s when my jaw hit the floor. Because -108dB THD+N is better than the Magni 3+!

So…all along, Magni has been a high-performance amp.

No. Wait. Stop. Read that again.
Magni has always been a high-performance amp.

Despite being conceived in a garage, despite being tweaked by eye, using an oscilloscope and shooting for maximum output swing, despite not having any kind of distortion analyzer except for a decrepit HP stack that looked like it came out of a 1950s science fiction movie, despite being years away from a Stanford Research analyzer and years more away from getting an APx!

That’s when I decided to re-measure all the Magnis, as part of the process of developing a new one.

This is what I learned.


Magnis Thru History

For those of you who want to skim the numbers and come to a quick conclusion, let me jump in front of the train.

I already went into why it’s not possible to compare an old Magni 1 with a new Magni+—due to gain differences. And that carries thru to all Magnis. I’m also simply measuring with a 300 ohm load for these comparisons, which has become a standard load for many headphone measurements. It’s not the more demanding 32 ohm load, which is usually what I’m looking at most carefully.

Magni gains thru the years are as follows:
  • Magni 1: 5x
  • Magni 2: 2x and 6x
  • Magni 2 Uber: 2x and 6x
  • Magni 3: 2x and 6x
  • Magni 3+/Heresy: 1x and 5x
  • Magni+/Heretic: 0.35x, 1x, and 5x
The higher the gain, the higher the noise and distortion. Why? More feedback equals less gain. And more feedback also means better measurements. More on that later.

But, more importantly, this means you can’t just do an apples-to-apples comparison of all those Magnis. If you do, choosing low gain, and running 2V RMS output into 300 ohms you get something like this:
  • Magni 1 (5x): -97dB THD+N
  • Magni 2 (2x): -108dB THD+N
  • Magni 2 Uber (2x): -114dB THD+N
  • Magni 3 (2x): -108dB THD+N
  • Magni 3+ (1x): -105dB THD+N
  • Magni Heresy (1x): -118dB THD+N
  • Magni+ (1x): -108dB THD+N
  • Magni Heretic (1x): -119dB THD+N
“Wait a sec,” you say. “A 2014 Magni 2 Uber gets damn close to the Heresy and Heretic versions—and it’s better than 3, 3+, and +! And at higher gain! What’s going on?”

Oh, you noticed that.

Biiiiiiiiig surprise. Because that’s from the times when Magnis weren’t supposed to measure well.

So what’s going on? Why did we apparently go backwards? What happens if gains are equalized? Why are the Heretical versions so much better in terms of measurement?

Let’s start by equalizing gains and focusing on the discrete Magnis:
  • Magni 1 (1x): -108dB THD+N
  • Magni 2 (1x): -108dB THD+N
  • Magni 2 Uber (1x): -114dB THD+N
  • Magni 3 (1x): -105dB THD+N
  • Magni 3+ (1x): -105dB THD+N
  • Magni+ (1x): -108dB THD+N
“Uh, shouldn’t these numbers all be better if the gain goes down?” you ask. “You said that more feedback usually gives you better numbers. And Magni 3 actually got worse!”

It’s simple: because it’s complicated.

And no, I am not messing with you. The problem is that a lot of engineering is really complicated, at least when it comes to the fine points, and has many points of contention, where you can go one way or the other, and some engineers will think one way is the best way and others will think the other way is the best way and the hilarious thing is, they might both be right.

To wit: More feedback, to a point, reduces noise and distortion. But there are other mechanisms that can dominate. In the case of the 1- and 2-series Magnis, they’re about at the limit of their topology and noise floor. In the case of the 3-series Magnis, they’re at the mercy of their diamond input topology, which, in the interest of simplicity (cost), do not use current sources. When you vary the voltage across a transistor by over 1/3 of its rail, you’re gonna see nonlinearity. Welcome to one of the finer points of analog discrete design. +100 points to you if you know how to alleviate this phenomenon. Because it can be done—it just takes more parts. More on this later.

But you aren’t done. “Hey, you dropped out the Heretical versions. What gives?”

What gives is we’re going to concentrate on the discrete Magnis…the interesting Magnis…the ones that build on what Magni always has been—an affordable, discrete headphone amp.

“Wait, you don’t think Heresy and Heretic are interesting?” you ask.

No. Here’s a primer on how to do a great-measuring IC-based amp:
  • Pick the best measuring ICs.
  • Attach to a decent power supply.
  • Update when better measuring parts are available.
And that’s it. Done.

I mean, sure, I tried to make the Hereticals as interesting as possible, with no overall loop feedback (which allows for an insanely low—but completely unnecessary—noise floor when in negative gain), but the bottom line is that their performance is set by the quality of the TI op-amps used in them. And, even though there’s no overall loop feedback, there’s tons of feedback in the front end and buffer stages of the design—like 120-130dB worth.

Does this mean the Hereticals are bad? Not at all. It means, for me, from my unique perspective as a discrete analog design engineer, they are not very interesting. I am not you, and I am not most engineers. So it may be a truly singular opinion.

Okay, so we’ve now established this chapter is about the discrete Magnis. We’ve gone back through history and saw that there are some, ah, surprises. And I did mention those 15 different dev versions of Magni I went through—those 15 different versions that were considered and rejected.

Why are there surprises? And why do a ton of variations and throw them away?

Read on…


A Simple Goal—Or So I Thought

Here’s the deal: two Magnis ain’t ideal. I’d rather have just one. There’s less potential confusion, less variation we have to deal with internally, less stuff to buy—it’s all-around better.

So I figured: let’s do a discrete Magni with Heresy-like performance. A Magni Unity, so to speak.

Sounds simple, doesn’t it?

Well, the basic idea—doing as good as, or better, than op-amps with a discrete design—is relatively straightforward. Cascaded discrete op-amp designs with hundreds of parts will get you there, no problem.

But when you start adding on constraints like “simple,” “small,” and “at a budget commensurate with a $100-ish product,” oh boy…then things get tough.

Because, let’s face it, I wanted the new Magni to stay a Magni: Small size. Small price. Great sound.

Aside: I mean, we are already at quixo levels of insanity just doing the Magni as a discrete product. Discrete, small size, and small price don’t naturally go together. But that’s what Magni always has been, and what I’d like it to always be.

In terms of increasing measured performance, I knew I had three choices:
  • Make the gain stage more linear. The problem with this approach is that it usually requires more parts. Look at an instrumentation front end compared to a standard diff, and you’ll see what I mean. Even going to an output triple is more parts, and only really comes into play at low impedance, and also has less potential output swing. All of this has to be factored in, when you’re looking at retaining the rated power output of an amp.
  • Increase the loop gain, so we could use more feedback. The problem with this approach is that every time I’ve done this, I’ve come away less happy with the sound. There are ways to manage this, of course—local loops, linearization, etc—but in general, the higher the gain the less happy I am. Of course, I may be completely insane or fooling myself, so YMMV.
  • Go back to a voltage feedback topology, which measures better. This is something well-known in the amp development community. Go to Diyaudio and do a search on “CFA vs VFA.” I hope you have a ton of time and a big cup of coffee. Oversimplifying: CFA (current feedback, as with Magni 3/3+/+) is usually faster, VFA (voltage feedback, as with Magni 1/2/2Uber) measures better.
“Aha!” some of the techies are saying. “That’s why the earlier Magnis measure better than the later ones! They’re voltage feedback!”

Exactly.

And, after I saw the numbers the Magni 2 Uber put up, I got really excited.

All I’d need to do would be to go back to voltage feedback, and tweak it a bit, and I’d be there! I mean, I had to be able to better optimize a topology in the era of the APx, right? I mean, I was still doing the Magni 2 Uber in our first dusty office, with the old HP analyzer. I had to be able to do better today!

So, one of the first versions of the new Magni was voltage feedback. But it wasn’t just a Magni 2 Uber. It used matched parts, new JFETs, and had multiple options for me to tweak loop gain, topology, and other parameters. By using paired parts, it came in at just a bit more complicated than the current Magni 3+.

I figured, Hey, this is probably it, we just take this, tweak it, and we have a single Magni! This is gonna be easy.

Except, just like on the chef shows where they have a clip of one of the contestants saying, “I’ve done a million risottos, this can’t fail,” right before a faceplant…this Magni faceplanted.

Not thrown-off-the-show level faceplant, but faceplant in that, no matter what I did, I couldn’t get it to measure significantly better than the old Magni 2 Uber.

That was frustrating! I mean, new matched/paired parts, way more linear, wayyyy better JFETs, wayyyyyyyyyyy more analyzer…and I was essentially back at the Magni 2 Uber. About -115dB THD+N. And that was with the VAS loaded, unloaded, MIC or CDOM compensation, different front end degeneration, operating point tweaks, etc, etc.

Frustrated, I did more variants. In all, there were three different voltage-feedback Magni candidates:
  • The originalist. What I just talked about.
  • Full complementary. Higher complexity, more parts. Barely fit on a Magni board. Gave us a couple dB better performance. Would have to be a more expensive product due to complexity.
  • Wacky VAS. Cascoding and CFP didn’t improve performance significantly, despite the fact that increasing the linearity of the voltage gain stage should have the biggest impact. Also had problems with fitting and cost.
And while doing all these variants, I started remembering what I didn’t like about voltage feedback topologies. I mean, VFA (voltage feedback amplifier) aficionados will be the first to point out that:
  • VFAs measure better than CFAs. As in, THD+N numbers will usually be better. This is mainly due to more loop gain.
  • VFAs have greater PSRR. As in, a VFA will typically reject more of the crud on the power supply. So you can get a lower noise floor with a VFA. It’s probably important to note here that much of the improvement in THD+N, when you’re playing at -110dB and lower, can be related to noise floor, so this isn’t an insignificant advantage.
  • The transient advantages of CFAs shouldn’t matter. As in, yeah, they might slew at 500V/uS, but you don’t need that for music, so who cares. (But then again, if you’re talking -108dB vs -115dB THD+N, you shouldn’t be able to hear that either, especially on transducers that are -40 to -50dB.)
The first two, yeah, I totally saw that in the measurement and prototyping phase. The third (speed), welllllllllllll…until you’ve compensated a high-loop-gain VFA design, after becoming very very spoiled with CFAs, you haven’t lived. At least if you define “living” as “a descent into a hell of complex and painful decisions, with possible tradeoffs.”

I mean, when the first version oscillated on first power-up, I wasn’t surprised. I’ve done plenty of VFA stuff back in the Sumo days. I know where to tweak, and I can usually get something stable pretty quickly.

Aside: if you ever look at a VFA amp schematic and wonder about all the small-value capacitors strewn around the design, they are usually for compensation—getting the amp stable, so the open loop gain is less than 1 by the time the output phase hits 180 degrees. For all expected loads.

Sounds fun? Well, in a current feedback amp, pick one cap from VAS to summing junction, filter the input, and you’re done. (Usually.)

In a VFA amp, you’re probably looking at least at a Miller cap and one in the feedback. Probably more, though. It wouldn’t be surprising to have a cap and stopper on the front end and caps and stoppers on a degenerated VAS. Getting this right can be pretty painful. And it can result in really weird stuff like asymmetrical slewing, or ringing on one or both sides of a square wave input.

So yeah, compensating the new VFAs was fun. Or maybe “interesting.” And even when it was stable, I had to reacquaint myself with terms like “slew rate,” which I’d never really had to worry about on the current feedback side. The final VFAs never were as fast as the CFA designs, but they were stable, didn’t ring, and had symmetrical slewing.

There were other pains, too, including the use of JFETs in the front end. I’m not ant-JFET, I use them all the time. But they do have their limitations, in that they are:
  • Low gain. JFETs don’t have as much gain as BJTs, so a front end, even with degeneration, is less linear.
  • Expensive. JFETs cost a lot more to a lot lot more than BJTs.
  • Not particularly well matched. In some applications (like Nexus), JFETs have to be matched. In Magni, some were so poorly matched that even in an application where it shouldn’t matter…it mattered.
So why did we use them? Simple. If you aren’t doing a full complementary topology, BJTs can’t be used in opposition, where one sinks the current coming out of the other. Without this inherent cancellation, BJTs will cause current to flow through the volume pot, unless you use a coupling capacitor on the input. Current flowing thru the volume pot manifests as scratching or wooshing noises. Capacitors in the signal path we don’t like. So JFETs it is on non-complementary VFA designs. And on Nexus, where the low-gain disadvantage is relatively moot.

Sounds like a pain, right? Yeah. But that still wouldn’t have killed the VFA idea.

In the end…the thing that killed the VFA designs…we did listening tests between The Originalist, Full Complementary, and Magni 3+.

And we preferred 3+.

Aside: yes, I know. Controversial. How were the tests blinded and matched? Can you really hear a difference below -110dB? Could we be fooling ourselves? Well, here’s the truth: of course we could be fooling ourselves. But, in blind listening, there was a remarkable consensus of opinion about the VFA Magnis—that they sounded a bit “hifi,” as in, boom and sparkle, maybe a bit of suckout thru the mids, a bit flat in presentation. Not horrible by any stretch, but the 3+ sounded more natural.

And so the VFA version was shelved. (But not lost, oh no, there’s a great application for it that’s coming…you’ll see, it’s just not a Magni.)


Current vs Voltage

So I went back to current feedback, or CFA, designs.

CFA aficionados will tell you:
  • CFAs are usually simpler. CFA amps can be extremely simple—you can get quite decent results with as little as 4 transistors! Of course, there’s always a tradeoff, like maybe having to have a capacitor in the feedback loops. We don’t go that simple, because we want to be DC throughout.
  • CFAs typically have very nice symmetry. Although you can do a non-fully-complementary CFA design (like Jotunheim 2), typically they’re fully complementary when you’re talking about single-ended topologies.
  • CFAs are fast and easy to compensate. The “slew rate” in a CFA isn’t limited by the current in the front end and Miller cap size—it’s related to the impedance of the feedback network. This can lead to some truly spectacular speed (as in, bandwidth measured in multiple MHz and 500-1000V/uS slew rates) from a stage that is dead easy to compensate. It can also lead to spectacular confusion and failures when you don’t realize that the impedance of the feedback network also affects distortion performance, and, if the bandwidth is too wide, you’re gonna run into some really bad instability. (Yes, as in, if the feedback resistor value is too high, the THD+N performance will suffer, and if it’s too small, you’re gonna see magic smoke.)
I’d already tweaked the Magni CFA for best performance in its current form, choosing a specific feedback resistor and compensation method for highest THD+N without instability. But that didn’t mean I couldn’t attack it in the same ways I mentioned before—enhance the linearity of the gain stage, or increase the loop gain.

And boy did I attack it. The other ten or so Magnis were all CFAs.



Here are some of the highlights.
  • Fancy VASes. For a current feedback amp, all of the gain is really in the VAS stage. This is one reason they don’t perform as well as a VFA—less gain. So making the VAS as linear as possible is key. I tried several versions, including ones with different, more linear transistors, degeneration, compound transistors, local feedback, and more. None of them got us to where we needed to be.
  • Hawksford Cascode. I also tried Hawksford’s approach to the VAS…again, performance proved stubbornly intractable.
  • Current Sourced Front End. Remember I said something about when you have an input signal that’s 33% of your rail? Yeah. One way to help the input transistors deal with this huge variance is to current-source them. This is what we do on Vidar. Unfortunately, it’s quite a few more parts. This, however, got us a lot closer to where we needed to be!
  • Triple Output Stage. Maybe our problem was the load? Nope, it wasn’t. Also we lost swing and suddenly had problems with an unstable CFA. Bottom line, not worth doing.
  • CFP Output Stage. Maybe if the output stage used complementary feedback transistor pairs? This would also increase the loop gain. In the end, this was also difficult to stabilize and didn’t get us where we needed to go.
  • CFPs Galore. How about a CFP front end and CFP VAS? This is now squarely in the realm of increasing loop gain. Punchline: without the front end current sources, there wasn’t much improvement.
  • Alt Simple Topologies. I tried a couple simpler CFA topologies. Performance went down, as you’d expect. Physics still works. Woohoo.
  • Local Filtering. Maybe we could get a couple more dB performance if I tamped down the remaining power supply noise? Well, yes, but at the cost of output. It needed enough filtering that we wouldn’t be able to maintain our power rating for the amp.
  • Error Correction. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em? I replaced Magni’s servo with a fancy OPA1656 op-amp in an error correction format. Dead easy. Also didn’t sound great. Also would need a lot of resistors switched around when changing gain, so more complex. Also didn’t really do much on low gain. So no.
“Hey, wait a minute, what the heck are you talking about with CFPs and Hawksford and error correction and all that stuff?” you ask. “Is there a way to distill this down to non-engineerese?”

Unfortunately, no.

Let’s disambiguate one thing, though: CFA vs CFP vs current output amplifier.
  • CFA is “current feedback amplifier,” as in, “my preferred amplifier topology.” As in, Magni, Asgard, Jotunheim, Ragnarok, Tyr, Vidar, and Aegir are all current-feedback amps. Lyr+ and Vali2++ too, if you squint a bit.
  • CFP is “compound feedback pair,” as in “a pair of transistors, connected in such a way that they form a compound, or Sziklai, pair.” This can be all-BJT, all-JFET, all-MOSFET, or a mix to get a particular mix of characteristics, such as high input impedance and better linearity. However, like/like mixes are more apt to cancel distortion and provide higher performance, within the limitations of the N- and P-type device differences. This cancellation is why stacking two JFETs for use as a buffer can provide spectacular performance improvements relative to a simple source follower, but that case is like-like stacking (as in, N-channel and N-channel. In any case, a compound feedback pair is a way to get more linearity and higher loop gain, and also combine characteristics, such as using a JFET/BJT pair for high input impedance and higher gain. It’s a really neat circuit that has very high inherent performance, and it forms the basis of the Freya+’s differential buffer circuit.
  • A “current output amplifier” is something that other companies do. It’s an amp with an intentionally very high output impedance. This is thought by some to be beneficial. I’ve never understood the fascination with them. This doesn’t mean they are bad. It’s just we don’t do them.
But, bottom line, one thing you’ll notice is that not much of what I did over all these Magni prototypes had much effect—with the exception of “current sourcing the front end.” So let’s talk about the whys and wherefores of that a bit.

Here’s the deal: the basic Magni architecture is really nice, really simple, and very high performance given its simplicity. But it’s easy to see where things start going whomper-jawed. Measure it at 1V RMS input in low gain, and you’ll get about -110dB THD+N. Measure it at 2V RMS, and performance decreases to about -106dB, with most of the increase being in an equal amount of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion.

Why does it do this? It’s because Magni runs on about +/-17V rails, and a 2V RMS input signal is almost 6V peak to peak. With a diamond input, this means that the voltage across the input transistors can vary from 11V to 17V—over 1/3 the total voltage. Transistor characteristics change with voltage across the device, so it’s not surprising you see nonlinearities popping up.

Aside: but we’re still talking about stuff that’s well below audibility.

If you want to get better performance, you’d feed the input transistors with a current source, eliminating much of the potential for variation. And when you do that, you get something that’s much more tolerant of big inputs. Pretty cool, huh?

Aside: but not enough to get us to that razor’s edge of physics, that magical realm where Heretic plays, around -120dB. Again, it shouldn’t be audible, but if you want to go for broke, you need more.
Aside to the aside: question for the class: why is -120dB, plus or minus a couple of decibels, about the limit for audio, when referenced to a couple of volts RMS?
Another aside to the aside: if you want a free performance upgrade, you can sometimes just rate at a higher output voltage. Magni may be -118dB SNR at 1V, but -124dB at 2V! Magic! Heck, it could be -130dB at 4V! And -136dB at 8V! Heck, it could touch -140dB at full output. That’s nearly 24 bits dood! Holy mole!
And another aside, because this is fun: you noticed I changed from THD+N to SNR there, right? But remember, when comparing specs, best to see what they’re referenced to. And if they are weighted. And if they’re in RMS watts. And lots of other things.
A final aside: and maybe you didn’t remember from the front of this giant chapter, but I’ll remind you here: all of this dev work and tweaking is referencing 300 ohm loads, because that has become an easy target. Lots of stuff falls apart at 32 ohms (and lower, these days)—and that’s where all the newer Magnis excel (3+ and up.)

Here’s the thing: to get a discrete Magni to the edge of what’s possible these days (in terms of THD+N performance), it has to become a different device. It needs to get bigger. It needs a lot more parts. And, if you want to get into truly magical numbers, you probably need more loop gain, or an entirely different, cascading discrete op-amp architecture. Both of which we don’t like.

So in the end, you get a Magni+ that simply builds on our well-known CFA architecture. It has a bunch of little tweaks, but it’s not significantly different. That’s why the board reads, “The Archetype.” That’s what it is: a solid, high-performing, great-sounding, affordable discrete headphone amp.

And that’s what it needs to be.


Leaving Las Vegas...Er, I Mean the Constraints of Magni

Now, after reading and digesting all of the above, you might be tempted to ask, “Given a clean sheet, could you get Magni near the best-measuring stuff—but without changing it wholesale?”

Heh heh. I asked myself the same thing. And if you can get a lot closer with current sources, you can get even closer with current sources and local filtering, and you can get even closer with the ultimate cheat, which is raising the rail voltages.

Using big rails is something we did all the time at Sumo. Hell, our preamps ran on +/-35V rails. And those huge rails gave us a big performance advantage, enabling relatively simple circuits to perform very well. It even allowed me to do a truly bonkers preamp with no overall and no local feedback and great measured performance—in 1992. There was nothing like it at the time.

So yeah, real nice current sources, local filtering, and high voltage rails, and Magni is there.

The problem is, then it’s not a Magni anymore. It would need to be bigger. The power supply would have to be entirely different. It would not be priced at $109.

Fun fact: when I realized that we could do something like this, I thought, “It’d be nice if we could do a super-Magni in a bigger chassis, with all these tricks…” before I realized we already did Magnius. And I don’t know if the world is ready for a single-ended Magnius. And that isn’t really an Asgard either, because Asgard has a particular sound, and it’s a modular amp, and…and heck, I don’t know where that wacky idea would fit, or if it fits anywhere. We’ll see. No promises.

Of course, after reading all this blather, you also might ask, “Well, do the ultimate measurements even matter? What about Magni Piety? Why wasn’t that the new Magni?”

And that’s another great set of questions. Let’s tackle them, and then let’s break down the metrics that we have to factor in when designing any new Magni.

Do the measurements matter? Of course they do. Unfortunately, we don’t know entirely which ones matter or at what level. Focusing on a single number based on steady-state performance at a single frequency and output level is oversimplification. A more broad-based array of numbers that addressed steady state distortion, transient performance, and perceived noise level would be better, but that’s a lot harder to visualize, and transient performance is difficult to nail down, other than looking at square wave performance, and that doesn’t tell the whole tale, especially if you’re talking long-term transient performance such as operational point drift. Aaaand steady-state performance doesn’t have a clear line—is -80dB THD fine, or should it be more? Does it matter with -40dB transducers? Aaaaand even perceived noise is a question mark, because maybe you don’t hear it if the topology of the amp has the potentiometer after the noisy section, and any perceived thing about the amp (how fast the volume ramps, etc) is subjective, aaaannd…and you see how we get in trouble here.

What about Magni Piety? Magni Piety, for those who don’t know, is a Magni version that is produced in limited amounts by Nitsch. A lot of people love the way it sounds, and say it sounds like a tube amp. A lot of people think it should have won our first Magni deep dev dive—from 2016, when we did 3 different Magni versions, one that became Magni 3, one that had a simple Continuity output stage (like Asgard 3), and one that had something I was calling “the programmable output stage,” or Continuum™, which used a whole boatload of parts to allow me to curve the output stage to simulate square-law, or tube-like, devices. We had a number of people listen to all 3, and the results were mixed. Mike liked the “programmable output stage” variant best, I liked the “simple Continuity” variant best, lots of others liked the “one that became Magni 3” best. Given the low power and complexity of the “programmable output stage” version, it was never really in the running. The simple Continuity version also lost due to lower power. And the one that became Magni 3 went through a lot of tweaks before it made it to production, because it had features—most notably an optional DAC card(!)—that never came to pass.

Why’d we end up with Magni 3 rather than the other two 2016 candidates? In retrospect, it’s simple: because it won the power, cost, and measurements metrics. Whenever we’re doing an inexpensive amp, we have to take all three into account—because we know an inexpensive amp will be used by a lot of people in a lot of different ways, and it will be scrutinized by a lot of reviewers in a lot of different ways. It needs to be the most universal amp we can produce. And the simple “3” variant was the one that won: it had the highest power output, lowest cost, and best measurements. And it still sounded very, very good—much better than the Magni 2 and Magni 2 Uber it replaced.

So where do we go from here?

Well, we go forward with a great new Magni+ that is the highest-performing discrete Magni, ever, and the most flexible Magni, ever.

And we go forward with Magni Heretic, when ultimate measured performance is desired. For all my blathering about how op-amp based amps are simple and easy, we put a looooot of work into this one, including the aforementioned unique no-overall-feedback topology, plus the overcurrent and DC protection, plus the ESD protection, etc, etc. Hell, for IEMs, it’s pretty much impossible to beat its noise performance, since the inherent noise of the gain stage is divided as well as source noise.

Aaaand we go forward knowing a whole lot more about what we can do with discrete designs, and with a whole new/old gain stage in our pocket.

Finally, we wait, and watch, and take data, and review how things go, and probably do a few more prototypes…to see if we can, someday, have a single, amazing, powerful, flexible, affordable, great-measuring discrete Magni.

Until then, I hope you enjoy yours, no matter which one you choose!
After using a Magni 3 for 2-3 years or more and giving it a mighty thrashing, as far as hours go, into a 600 ohm load, I now have the Magni 3+. I thoroughly enjoyed my Magni 3 ... but the Magni 3+ is quite an upgrade! Using the same 33 year old Sennheiser HD540 Reference - complete with Mogami #2893 cable and my preferred 'Wang' pleather pads - the improvement has been across the board and after some 20+ hours or so has just settled down into truly sounding like a big, clean amp made smaller. I'm extremely familiar with the quality of timbre and even sonic balance coming from the venerable Senns (I've owned them since new from 1989! Must be well over 1000 hours with these cans over the years.), especially since making the cables and using the pleather pads some years back. Magni 3+ is a joy, even with high gain switched on and volume control usually around 12-2:30 o'clock, the whole sound is purer, more detailed, has improved inner sight into instrument and vocal tone, macro and micro dynamics and has surprised me in the way that instruments and voices maintain their tone and image solidity as they reach higher and/or louder. Brilliant! A soprano's voice does not thin and go to edge as it projects in volume as the Magni 3 used to, violins maintain their tone, drum kits are weightier, faster in dynamic impact, yet there is more skin detail and focus at the same time. This amp is another keeper for years to come and fully deserves the 600mm pure silver Slinkylinks (with non-magnetic Bullet Plugs) connected to the very fine Modi Multibit, even though they cost me twice the price of the amp some 10 years ago. Both of the Schiit electronics sing with these cables. Lesser cables have a noticeable degradation from the complete lack of grain and distortion and sheer purity that I have experienced for years with this gear. Simply worth it! For me. Thank you Jason and Mike for yet another cracking bit of kit! I may not understand all of the technical details, but I do enjoy reading the about the process you have gone through to bring this gear to us. Awesome.
 
Last edited:
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:14 PM Post #104,420 of 155,125
I caved. Ordered the last (at least for now) Freya N. I feel so dejected and yet so elated. :D
 
Last edited:
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:37 PM Post #104,424 of 155,125
@Jason Stoddard Really enjoyed the latest chapter, thank you!

Do you think you have a chapter's worth of collateral damage to report on? As in drivers blown, fires started, wires melted, breakers tripped, that sort of thing.

Whenever I think about just measuring stuff myself or even getting into electronics I immediately worry about breaking stuff, but I'm wondering how common that even is.
Hmm, not that much, really. But I am very, very, very paranoid until all the protection systems are in place--variacing things up, watching on a Flir, checking output volts/waveforms before anything's connected, etc. There's a prototype in CC right now that has a big sign on it: Don't plug in prized headphones! May blow them up! Not kidding! And that just doesn't have the protection systems running, it's perfectly listenable if you're careful. The big speaker power amps are the scariest, but even those have been pretty mild. Sorry to disappoint.

But, if you want to get into building, here's how you can avoid a lot of pain:

1. Treat any new device as if it's a bomb and might blow up until proven wrong.
2. Get a variac (a device to vary the AC line from 0 to full voltage) and use it religiously. On everything. Even wall-wart powered products.
3. Get a Flir (infrared thermal camera) and watch the board as you variac it up slowly. If something lights up like the sun, confirm it's within the range of typical operating temperatures...unless you're running tubes, or big power resistors, anything over about 60 degrees C should be looked at. It's either a fault, or you need to bring the operating point down a bit.
4. When it's up and running and not running too hot/smoking/etc, run it through the modes, especially low gain (typically higher feedback) to see if anything goes bonkers. "Goes bonkers" means smoking parts, bright LEDs, bright like sun on Flir.
5. Check output for lots of DC. Fix if lots of DC.
6. Check basic I/O (does it output a sine wave if you input a sine wave, is the square wave relatively free from overshoot, etc. You can do this on an inexpensive scope, some even have signal generators built in.
7. If it passes all those tests, make sure volume works (and turns DOWN), turn it down, and then maybe have a listen.

Remember all of the above are very crude tests, just to get you to something that's kinda-sorta working without smoke. There's still tons of work to do to get to something you want to use everyday.

Go ahead and share it then. 🤣
It's info@schiit.com -- if you don't receive an immediate response saying you're in the queue, check spam. If we missed your email in the holiday craziness, ping us again. We'll get you taken care of.
 
Last edited:
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:40 PM Post #104,426 of 155,125
I'm not going to step on Jason's toes. I have too much respect for him to do that. But like I said, try Google and see what happens...? 😀
They obviously don’t want to communicate through that channel so I reached out with their preferred channel of email. It’s up to them to respond and not for me to track down a phone number that they probably won’t answer anyway. 😀
 
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:42 PM Post #104,427 of 155,125
They obviously don’t want to communicate through that channel so I reached out with their preferred channel of email. It’s up to them to respond and not for me to track down a phone number that they probably won’t answer anyway. 😀

Smart people.

82dc49ceebdd702c80f00d05af4d63b3--groucho-marx-quotes-celebrity-quotes.jpg
 
Nov 30, 2022 at 10:47 PM Post #104,428 of 155,125
I'm having a hard time identifying which sample rates the Sonos Connect supports on the digital output(s?), which is a bad sign. The manual mentions 48 kHz as the highest generally supported. ASR suggests it only supports 16 bit as well.

So for hi-res this thing appears to be hot trash. It certainly doesn't always give you the best Amazon Music HD has to offer, but tracks that both Amazon and Apple only have as 16/44.1 (CD quality) shouldn't sound different if both are the same mastering and haven't been tampered with (e.g. watermarks) and are played through the same chain. In theory, anyway. So no promises from me that a Node will improve your experience.

But good to mention Apple Music. I briefly looked into the viability of using that as someone with only Windows and Android devices (apart from an old iPad in the kitchen serving as a TV and streamer) It's not supported by my Node 2i except via AirPlay and even with Mac devices you don't necessarily get the full quality over AirPlay. So that's a no-go for me.


Oh, Cheap Audio Man hinted at that, it sounded too good to be true. Nice!

When I first heard about WiiM I heard it's a Chinese company and that maybe their devices phone home a bit much. That would be a concern I'd have to look into first, but people seem to like their products otherwise.

Is this an exclusive collaboration or might I see an update to the Node 2i support it as well?

I didn't read the entire thread, but they mentioned Chromecast with 192 kHz as well. That might work with Qobuz depending on what they decide to send to it. I think with a Chromecast Audio Qobuz rightfully doesn't bother with higher sample rates, but I could be misremembering (maybe it was the Amazon app).


So sad that was discontinued rather than improved. Just adding an optical out to the full Chromecast would have helped if maintaining an audio only version isn't viable.


Well, that's what I was told before I tried it the second time. With Spotify my experience is largely that I find a song there if someone mentions it. Yet lots of even my Spotify gear test playlist (i.e. with higher quality recordings) wasn't on Qobuz. Is Chesky Records available there now? Catering to audiophiles and not featuring Chesky Records is a failure, though it may not have been up to Qobuz.
And while I listen to many genres, Classical is rarely among that.


What a strange move. They should properly support the other half of the world that uses Windows and Android first before catering to that niche. Basically I want Spotify with bit-perfect hi-res, if I could get that from Apple I'd pay for it.


Could be better jitter performance, or maybe it performs upsampling. Or less noise on the output because the device does less. Just semi-educated guesses, hehe.

A while back I compared my Node 2i to my Samsung BD-H5900 Blu Ray player based on a similar suggestion. Where I heard differences, the Blu Ray player sounded worse (I'm not pretending it's representative of pure CD players/transports, just the closest that I have to that).
That difference went away when I reclocked its signal with a Mutec MC-3+ USB, though. If that also improved the Node 2i then not as much. That's precisely why I have that reclocker, so expectation bias may be at play here, as usual.
In terms of raw bits they sent the same data, I verified that first.


Yeah, I used a USB stick with CD rips in my testing as well. I agree with the app verdict, sadly it seems to be one of the better experiences in the streamer world, based on what I heard when I bought it.
And most streamers don't support Amazon Music.


My name is Alcophone and I support that message! 💯
Yes Sonos Connect only does 16/48. At lossless CD quality Amazon Music does sound different from Apple Music does sound different from Qobuz (with the latter two both sounding very good). I am not technically knowledgeable (to put it mildly) but from what I've read streaming services sound different because of how they're streamed, i.e., the "containers" (?) the audio files are transferred in. Assuming of course that the files are even bit perfect to begin with.

Qobuz is great for classical music but is limited in its other selections.

Spotify has a tremendous catalog (as do Amazon and Apple) and probably the best interface but I became fed up with the delays in delivering lossless files; which it appears they may not even implement now as their business model has shifted so much to podcasts.
 
Nov 30, 2022 at 11:08 PM Post #104,429 of 155,125
I'm not sure why you wouldn't just describe the Magni as simply a low-distortion-at-1kHz-amp. "Performance" is a term I'd use when headphones are plugged in, and the amp can maintain its capabilities under a varying load -- something we all know doesn't happen.
Yep, that's certainly a more accurate description, and, sadly, it is what passes as "high performance" sometimes. Hence the comment to counter the perception of old Magnis as being "low performance."

A more multivariate, broader view of performance is certainly needed, which is one reason we now provide a 94-page APx report for the Magni+ and Heretic, covering a bunch of gains, a bunch of loads, THD, noise, IMD, FR, etc. It's still not the be-all end-all, but it should provide a better idea about the amp's measured performance.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Nov 30, 2022 at 11:17 PM Post #104,430 of 155,125
I no longer run this company so I hope it is all right to post a link.

https://www.cablesforless.com/hospital-grade-power-cords/
Oh cow! That's what these grey cables are!

I bought 3 items, with these weird looking cables ... cool.

They sound fantastic! Just like electricity should.

So, does 18 gauge ac cord cover the energy draw for a big tube amplifier, or does one need more gauge?

FREYA S sighting in b-stock!
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top