Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Sep 6, 2022 at 1:20 AM Post #99,256 of 150,451
Well, 2x Tyr's are a bit too big for my desktop. :p

Believe me -- if Schiit made a small BF2 sized class AB 10-15wx2 desktop amp for passive speakers, I would be all over that!! :smirk:
You know Jason may be releasing a small amp in the future
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 1:49 AM Post #99,258 of 150,451
Welp, you purchasing a class D amp indicates your programming is flawed... 😎

@David222 : I believe the first step in owning class D is admitting to it

I must own up and admit to owning some Class-D that isn't Schiit ... shock, horror !

The NAIM Mu-so I have (https://www.naimaudio.com/mu-so), has Class-D amplification, but which is configured per speaker (6 speakers... 2 x bass, mid and tweeter), giving a total of 450w. It does sound rather good though, to my ears, in typical NAIM style ... and NO SWITCH, front or back. It just goes into stand-by mode. I love the large touch-dial on the top and the unit is bigger than it looks in the photos.

A good alternative speaker system if you don't have the room to do justice to a pukka 2-channel Schiit system. Clearly, it doesn't have a wide stage, but then my dedicated room for it isn't wide either ... these old French houses have strange room sizes, although lots of them !!

Would Schiit ever make one of these all-in-one ? ... it would need an external streamer as Jason has previously said 'no to streamers'. Probably not in their DNA.
 
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Sep 6, 2022 at 3:16 AM Post #99,259 of 150,451
I also have class D amplifiers, in my case mono Hypex Ncore NC400s in black cases each machined using CNC from a solid block of aircraft-grade aluminium. They sound very, very good. And yes, the power switches are on the back. As Bruno Putzeys designed, they also only connect via XLR cables. But currently they sit unused as they were replaced by a single Aegir connected via RCA. The speakers were Focal 1008be but have been replaced by Spendor D7s.
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 4:22 AM Post #99,260 of 150,451
Hey folks!

Just hanging out in a hotel room after a climb of Kilimanjaro (5,895 m 19,341 ft). Missed you guys and gals! The one album that got me up would be Fagen's Kamakiriad. Good to be back :)

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Sep 6, 2022 at 5:38 AM Post #99,261 of 150,451
Hey folks!

Just hanging out in a hotel room after a climb of Kilimanjaro (5,895 m 19,341 ft). Missed you guys and gals! The one album that got me up would be Fagen's Kamakiriad. Good to be back :)









Rather you than me !! But does look impressive.
 
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Sep 6, 2022 at 6:14 AM Post #99,262 of 150,451
Hey folks!

Just hanging out in a hotel room after a climb of Kilimanjaro (5,895 m 19,341 ft). Missed you guys and gals! The one album that got me up would be Fagen's Kamakiriad. Good to be back :)

kili--5.jpg

kili--2.jpg

kili--4.jpg

kili--7.jpg

kili--6.jpg
The "Dan" are an all-time favorite of mine, I have all their albums on CD. Saw them live twice.
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 6:28 AM Post #99,263 of 150,451
Can you quantify that? I used my Yggdrasil OG in my home theater setup for a long time and then the Bifrost 2 and never noticed latency issues (despite perceiving myself as sensitive to that).

I did some tests out of curiosity with the Twitch audio video sync test:


TV: Vizio OLED55-H1 (120 Hz, OLED), either built-in YouTube app (gaming mode off) or YouTube website in Chrome on Windows via HDMI into an avedio HDMI switch (gaming mode on)
Monitor: Dell S2417DG (165 Hz, 1ms latency, TFT), YouTube website in Chrome on Windows
I checked whether playing the source video with VLC instead of the YouTube version in Chrome improves things and it does not.

I recorded this with my Galaxy S10+ in slow motion mode (240 FPS, not the 960 FPS super slow motion which doesn't seem to capture sound). Using a clap board I found out that my phone's camera has a base latency of 25 ms in this mode, so I compensated for that in the below measurements. Using DaVinci Resolve I advanced frame by frame in the recorded video until the Twitch provided wave form appeared on screen (lower left area), noted that timestamp, then advanced frame by frame until the sound level indicator rose above the background noise level (the app conveniently plays a frame's worth of audio when advancing frame by frame). The difference yields a frame count, multiplied by 1/240 provides the latency in seconds before compensation for the camera oddity.
If I do that with the raw 60 FPS video from Twitch, I get one frame of latency, i.e. up to ~16.7ms, probably because the sound becomes audible at some point between those two frames. I did not compensate for that in the below numbers. I also did not check whether the video on YouTube matches the source video from Twitch or has additional latency because YouTube makes it rather difficult to download the 1080p 60 Hz version.

Audio paths and associated latency (negative: audio ahead of video, positive: audio behind video):
PC + TV > HDMI Switch > TOSLINK > TOSLINK switch > Reclocker > Coax > Bifrost 2: -25 ms
PC + TV > HDMI Switch > TV > TOSLINK switch > Reclocker > Coax > Bifrost 2: 20.8-41.7 ms
PC + monitor > DisplayPort > monitor headphone out: 33.3-37.5 ms
PC + monitor > USB > ZEN DAC Signature: 50-66.7 ms
PC + monitor > USB > Yggdrasil OG: 50-58.3 ms
TV with built-in speakers: 75 ms
TV > TOSLINK > Bifrost 2: 70.8ms
TV > TOSLINK switch > Reclocker > Coax > Bifrost 2: 66.7-75 ms
TV > TOSLINK switch > Reclocker > TOSLINK > Bifrost 2: 66.7-75 ms
TV > TOSLINK switch > Reclocker > Coax > Topping E30: 87.5-91.7ms

Obviously there is some variability in those numbers, with the camera frame rate of 240 FPS = ~4.2ms per frame being the smallest contributor. Also one path having a lower latency than another generally could mean the audio arrives faster or the video arrives later. If both are delayed by exactly one hour they would be perfectly in sync despite the setup being completely useless and for gaming you'd want a very low video latency.

I was actually surprised by these results, I suspected that the TOSLINK switch and Reclocker would add latency compared to going straight from the TV into the Bifrost 2, which in turn I expected to have higher latency than using the built-in speakers, instead those are all roughly in the same ballpark with the TV or YouTube app responsible for the most of the latency. I also would have thought that the delta sigma Topping DAC would have less latency than the multibit Bifrost 2 with its fancy filter, instead the E30 seems to have more than 10 ms of additional latency.

Perhaps the most interesting results are the first two where extracting the audio via the HDMI switch's TOSLINK out seems to eliminate more than 45 ms of latency. This switch also happens to retain the source's sample rate while the TV upsamples it to 48 kHz, which is why I have not connected the PC directly to the TV.
With the HDMI switch used as an audio extractor, the audio in the recording was perfectly in sync, so compensating for the 25 ms latency measured with the clap board the audio was leading the video by 25 ms. Only in this situation would delaying the audio help, but of course the TV's lip sync feature is useless in this case since it doesn't provide the audio. Still, routing the audio from the PC through the TV provided one of the best results. For all other scenarios, the usual audio sync option of delaying the audio would only make the problem worse since the audio is already lagging behind the image as it is.

Obviously I would love for all of these results to be significantly closer to 0 ms (especially with the built-in speakers), but even with up to 75 ms of latency I never got the impression that something is wrong despite watching a lot of YouTube videos this way every day. I'm wondering whether the Netflix or Prime Video apps perform just as bad as the YouTube app, but this is harder to test without special test content.

But it seems that Bifrost 2 and Yggdrasil are competitive with some other DACs in terms of latency, and other factors resulted in a difference of 100 ms between the best (-25 ms) and worst (+75 ms) latency I saw with it.


That is the nicer problem to have for video playback. Is the audio delay setting in milliseconds by chance or some abstract number? I'm curious by how much you have to delay the audio.


Thanks for measuring this out in your setup! I'm using a little bit of an older Samsung TV, however PS5 ->TV->Optical SPDIF-> Bifrost 2 had more of a delay than using my modded OG Bifrost 1 which I could not perceive a delay with. If I use USB I have no issues with a PC. My TV could be a factor of course so, I've ordered an HDMI-Optical SPDIF extractor to see if that fixes my issue.
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 7:52 AM Post #99,264 of 150,451
Don't see anything? Or are your SAF-approved racks invisible? I could go for that :-D Electronics floating in spaaace...
Take Two....
Although the invisible concept has merit!
 

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Sep 6, 2022 at 7:55 AM Post #99,265 of 150,451
I have Magnepan 3.7i with a Marantz PM-11S2. It's a sweet sounding unit with the Maggies. I can make it shut down when I get a little rowdy later in the evening (Buffalo Trace stampede)... but for 99% of the time, it's killer. (Yes, eyeballing Tyr...) I don't care about how stuff measures... I measure viscerally... it either sounds right to me, or it does not. It does not matter how it measures if I don't want to keep listening. Can I listen for hours on end? It's the same thing with cigars. I've owned a Joule Electra LAP-150 full tube pre and VZN-80 OTL amp for 20 years... I like how stuff sounds. With the Maggies / Marantz, I've been running a Border Patrol SEi DAC. Old skool Phillips R2R dac chip with choke input power supply and tube rectification. It's very easy to listen to... but with such a sweet (tube like) sounding integrated, and Maggies... maybe not as detailed? A little something was missing...

So, recently I thought... "hey, let's put in that Modi Multibit I bought with spare change from the guy I met in Petty's Meat Market parking lot in Longwood, FL and see what happens".... GULP. More detail... more of what the system needed. It's just better than the other thing. For the record... it's true... Modi MB really is "the only DAC you need". I'll never sell it. Too good, cost so little, why?

So, since I'm really good at math (and rationalizing spending money)... "what would happen if we tried that new Schiit Bifrost 2/64 DAC with the newfangled dealio stuff and better POWER SUPPLY than the Modi MB, etc?

Well, you can probably guess what's happened. KICK ASS!!! Which... has lead to another "problem"... Yggy... Less Is More? Currently axing myself what it is I'm trying to fix; however, you don't know until you know. But, but, but... better POWER SUPPLY. @Jason Stoddard and his "Lead Copywriter" have made it a point to stay away from comparisons. Still, it would be nice to know... WWJD? It would be fun to corner him (lock the door... "Now youse can't leave"...) and ply him with wine he finds drinkable to discuss "that which we must not speak of", or at least: repeat.

This is happiness in search of a problem.
Just have to ask, as I'm wondering how you listen to cigars?
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 7:58 AM Post #99,266 of 150,451
Just hanging out in a hotel room after a climb of Kilimanjaro (5,895 m 19,341 ft). Missed you guys and gals! The one album that got me up would be Fagen's Kamakiriad. Good to be back :)

Good album choice.

:beerchug:
JC
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 8:12 AM Post #99,267 of 150,451
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Sep 6, 2022 at 8:16 AM Post #99,268 of 150,451
Heresy, I know!! It's just driving some speakers on my computer desktop and honestly -- not too shabby. I would not use it with my big 2-channel rig, but for the $$$ it is quite good for my application. :p
I use a couple small class D amps for test purposes in my shop, then switch over to Class A for serious listening with the tiny speakers. I used these two amps plus a Cary tube amp when I wanted to really hear what the speakers could do. None of them have a small footprint exactly but my desktop is close to my main audio rack so that is not an issue.

5C4F86D6-3C26-49AA-96AE-E627F971D5AD.jpegCowen amp.jpg
 
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Sep 6, 2022 at 8:20 AM Post #99,269 of 150,451
Sep 6, 2022 at 8:31 AM Post #99,270 of 150,451
Your records would sound better if the cleaner's tank were made of maple. :smirk:
I like this one because I can use it for other purposes, cleaning watch parts, glasses, jewelry, and metal.

I am considering setting up two turntables to complete my audio system, I would consider using maple on a custom plinth I will be making. :ksc75smile:

One turntable would be for listening to records after cleaning (direct drive), then on to a more serious belt drive turntable when I know they are suitable. I have a lot of older records stored from the 60's and 70's that may not make the grade. I also bought large lots of them at auctions and a thorough cleaning will help me know their true condition.
 
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