[A Jedi]

Lisst's kinda weird and difficult to define position between tube and solid state

Except that it's very easy to define given that it's solid state It's just an encased discrete opamp.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Except that it's very easy to define given that it's solid state It's just an encased discrete opamp.

I linked to my original post on this topic for reference in part to avoid that kind of reply, to be honest…

Of course Lisst are solid state. But that statement really only covers the topological part of it. Sonically, they are very much nothing like what you would classically consider "solid state" to sound or behave like.
And even topologically, it's not really completely "just like solid state," either, because Lisst can be rolled like tubes, while solid state amps (regardless of whether op-amps, JFETs, or MOSFETs are used) are pretty much exclusively fixed as-is and can't be altered by swapping in alternative transistor circuits that may sound differently.

So with a product like Lisst, you effectively end up with an amp that has a tube-like sonic signature, with tube-like "rollability," using solid-state parts that you usually, if at all, only find in über-expensive (boutique) amps.

And as such, Lisst is at home somewhere in between the two usual camps, not fully part of either one of them. It forms, as I see it, its own, third category. That was what I intended with that statement (and with the original, linked-to post). I hope that clarifies things a little.

 

[artur9]

Note to self: Develop app that leverages Augmented Reality (AR) via Occulus (or similar devices), allowing every amp to "be" a tube amp and delivering the experience of tube swapping to non-tube amp owners by allowing swapping of "virtual tubes". Revenue would be generated via sales of TOTL "virtual" tubes through a "virtual tube store.

** V2 would add hunting for highly discounted NOS TOTL tubes in an AR environment like Pokemon GO. This would be available for a monthly subscription fee, yet to be determined...

One could create custom virtual tube NFTs.

I think, having contemplated the NFT thing in depth, that

1. make a VR tube amp that plugs into iTunes/Winamp and affects the sound
2. Make tube NFT with all kinds of effects both tube-y and non-tube-y (reverb, party, etc)
3. Profit!

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Except that it's very easy to define given that it's solid state It's just an encased discrete opamp.

It is not an opamp of any kind, discrete or integrated.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Lisst kinda weird?!? Oooohhhhh!!!! You have my attention. Now I'll have to try them.

Kinda weird in what kind of a product they are. (See my post prior to this one.)

Sonically, they're not at all weird. They're right at home between solid state and tubes. At least to me, they offer the best of both worlds; a clarity and definition reminiscent of solid state, and very similar distortion and holographic imaging characteristics to what one would expect from a tube.

Lisst, I want to stress again, should not be seen as a tube replacement, but as a third alternative to the both camps, with a unique and equally enjoyable sound signature to them.

That "third camp" thing is the weirdness that I have been trying to convey for months, and I think this "third camp" issue is precisely why they didn't really succeed when they were around the first time. People (myself included) mistook them as tube-replacements, not as their own product. And as such, Lisst had to fail, because they just don't sound exactly just like tubes. They sound different. Not worse, nor better. Tube-like? Maybe. But most of all: different.

 

[33na3rd]

Last one, I promise!

 

[Paladin79]

Lisst kinda weird?!? Oooohhhhh!!!! You have my attention. Now I'll have to try them.

I can include a loaner pair with a package heading your way Monday.

They are decent and rated a bit higher than expected in my comparisons.

 

[AudioGal]

I can include a loaner pair with a package heading your way Monday.

They are decent and rated a bit higher than expected in my comparisons.

That would be fun! Thank you!

 

[JanMc]

Picked my Aegir up from the Schiitter today. I really like the top end detail so far and don't at all miss the extra bottom end from the Vidar. Serious listening should ensue this weekend.

I am playing the Aegir into Zu Omen IIs. For those of you that have this setup, do you like the speaker loading resistors for the Zu's? If so, what ohm resistor do you feel works best with the Aegir? Thanks.

 

[Orange5o]

Ok, trying my luck here with the wealth of smarties on this thread...just replaced my Bifrost 2 with a new Gungir, and having issues:

Using Raspberry Pi 3 or 4 via USB from both Volumio and Runeaudio and using multiple local storage drives, once the Gungnir does the mute relay click to play 96 khz files (usually 24 bit FLAC), anything I switch to with a different sample rate (typically 44.1 khz) does not get a sample change click from Gungnir and sounds incredibly bad. I can still go back to 96 khz files and it sounds fine, but nothing I do causes a new sample rate change/mute relay click. If i reboot everything, I can play 44.1 khz sound again, but once I do any sample rate change (with the mute relay click), it again won't go back to 44.1 khz (both mp3 or FLAC) without sounding like crap. I've used this same setup with a Bifrost 2 for over a year with no issue. USB cable is Wireworld Ultraviolet that has performed perfectly for a year. Schiit support's only response was to try a laptop. I can't replicate the issue, likely because the laptop is resampling everything to 44.1 or something (since nothing causes a sample rate change click with the Gungnir) and frankly I don't care to figure out how to force the issue, given my layout I need to use a Pi streamer anyways. Nor do I want to go through a 1.5 terabyte library looking for 96 khz files to reformat.

In my opinion the Gungnir is failing to change sample rates, but I'm kind of a dummy. I'm afraid to send it back for a swap and have it do the same issue because 1) Gungnir is older tech than the Bifrost 2 perhaps? 2) It could be an issue with the new VCO version? Who knows...

Only solution I've found is resampling within Volumio, but then my fear is whether the sound is being degraded at all? What do I set it at, max, or 176.4 or 192 or what?

Hoping anyone would have some insight into this, as far as 1) would you send the unit back?, 2) would you just resample through volumio, if there is a technological reason that I wouldn't be missing anything? Grrr

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Ok, trying my luck here with the wealth of smarties on this thread...just replaced my Bifrost 2 with a new Gungir, and having issues:

Using Raspberry Pi 3 or 4 via USB from both Volumio and Runeaudio and using multiple local storage drives, once the Gungnir does the mute relay click to play 96 khz files (usually 24 bit FLAC), anything I switch to with a different sample rate (typically 44.1 khz) does not get a sample change click from Gungnir and sounds incredibly bad. I can still go back to 96 khz files and it sounds fine, but nothing I do causes a new sample rate change/mute relay click. If i reboot everything, I can play 44.1 khz sound again, but once I do any sample rate change (with the mute relay click), it again won't go back to 44.1 khz (both mp3 or FLAC) without sounding like crap. I've used this same setup with a Bifrost 2 for over a year with no issue. USB cable is Wireworld Ultraviolet that has performed perfectly for a year. Schiit support's only response was to try a laptop. I can't replicate the issue, likely because the laptop is resampling everything to 44.1 or something (since nothing causes a sample rate change click with the Gungnir) and frankly I don't care to figure out how to force the issue, given my layout I need to use a Pi streamer anyways. Nor do I want to go through a 1.5 terabyte library looking for 96 khz files to reformat.

In my opinion the Gungnir is failing to change sample rates, but I'm kind of a dummy. I'm afraid to send it back for a swap and have it do the same issue because 1) Gungnir is older tech than the Bifrost 2 perhaps? 2) It could be an issue with the new VCO version? Who knows...

Only solution I've found is resampling within Volumio, but then my fear is whether the sound is being degraded at all? What do I set it at, max, or 176.4 or 192 or what?

Hoping anyone would have some insight into this, as far as 1) would you send the unit back?, 2) would you just resample through volumio, if there is a technological reason that I wouldn't be missing anything? Grrr

I'm sorry that I won't be able to help you with anything Raspberry-specific, but I might be able to help at least a little bit with your laptop, if it's a Mac.

So, IF your laptop is a Mac and you were using anything other than Roon (or another player that outputs directly to USB instead of the system's global audio API), then your Mac will indeed resample everything into whatever is currently set up to be the global sample rate and bit depth, and you won't hear any clicks from the Gungnir whenever the sample rate changes from track to track.

What you can try in this case is to open the "Audio MIDI Setup" app, which comes pre-installed and can be found in your /Applications/Utilities folder, or via Spotlight or Launchpad. There, select "Schiit Gungnir Unison USB" from the sources in the list to your left. If you can't find such an entry for your Gungnir, make sure it's plugged in via USB and switched on. Next, to your right, make sure that "Output" is selected. Below that, you'll find a combo box labeled "Format:". Click on it and select from the options given to you anything that has a different sample rate than what is currently selected. The system usually defaults to 44.1 kHz. Select any bit depth from one of the other sample rate options, and you should hear Gungnir do the click.

PLEASE NOTE that you will NOT hear a click if you ONLY change between bit depth settings within the same sampling rate, as the click you hear comes from Gungnir's internal clocking circuit. That only needs to adapt to the incoming signal if and when the sample rate (44.1kHz, 48.0kHz, 88.2kHz, etc.) changes, but not when only the bit depth (16/24/32 bit) changes.

If Gungnir does click every time you change the sample rate on your Mac (or PC, for that matter), then it's almost guaranteed to be an issue with the Pi.
I have, on occasion, similar issues with Roon on my Mac. Roon (if so set up) can operate in "hog mode" on the Mac, wich means that it will bypass the system's global audio API and take over ("hog") the USB connection to the DAC directly. From time to time, I have the problem that when Roon wants to play a new song that has a sample rate that's different from the one that was played prior, it'll just sit there and wait. I have no way to debug neither Gungnir nor Roon, so I can't say for sure what's going on "under the hood," but it appears to me that Roon is trying to close the existing USB connection to the DAC and reopen a new one with the new sample rate, and either Gungnir doesn't answer at all, answers in a way that's not correctly understood by Roon (unlikely, since Unison is a fully USB-compatible implementation and can only be licensed as such if it adheres to the standard protocols), either because of a handshake timing issue or some other bug, or Roon itself trips over itself at some point. (Which, given the rest of Roon's frankly miserable state of affairs, seems the most likely explanation to me.)
All that is to say that there's a very decent likelihood that whichever implementation of audio software you use on your Pi could have a similar issue. If your Gungnir clicks every time you change the global sampling rate for that audio output on your Mac (or PC), then that's the most likely explanation in my book. If it doesn't, then I would try a different USB cable. If that doesn't change anything, then it might be worth to have a closer look at your Gungnir.

 

[Orange5o]

I will try forcing my laptop (it's windows btw) to send different sample rates to see if it presents the same issue, but that won't solve anything as I have no interest or ability to use a laptop full time with my setup. Will report back on this though.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

I will try forcing my laptop (it's windows btw) to send different sample rates to see if it presents the same issue, but that won't solve anything as I have no interest or ability to use a laptop full time with my setup. Will report back on this though.

It will make a difference in that it helps you rule out certain potential causes for what you're seeing. I amended my post accordingly. Sorry, I should have been more clear on that right out the gate.

 

[AudioGal]

FedEx just delivered my Folkvangr! Fun for the evening! More later.

 

[Les Strat]

I’ve just had an email from
Laura at Schiit confirming that my Folkvangr has shipped.

I ordered on 2 July and my credit card company (Barclaycard) did a good job of screwing up the whole order.

They decided, without advising me, to decline the payment to Schiit as it had been flagged by their ‘fraud team’.

I discovered this today, at 5pm local time in UK.

It took an hour for anybody to answer the phone, at Barclaycard, and then there were further delays while they consulted the ‘Fraud Team’

They offered neither an explanation nor an apology for deciding to block a legitimate payment.

I exchanged emails with Schiit after being forced to cancel the original order and place a new one.

I thought I might end up at the back of the queue, but Laura picked up the re-order and arranged for it to be packed and shipped.

She did this in about 15 minutes!

What fantastic service!
Thank you Laura.

The difference in customer service between Barclaycard and Schiit couldn’t be starker.

I will be closing my account with Barclaycard, but I am sure I will buy even more gear from Schiit.

In the UK it is becoming almost impossible to find companies, or Government Agencies, who provide an acceptable level of service.

Schiit is a breath of fresh air.

A friend of mine in the UK ordered his first Schiit products about a week ago, purely on my recommendation.(Magni 3+ and Loki).

The items arrived today.

He said the whole experience of dealing with Schiit was excellent, the products are beautifully made, and they sound great!

Thanks again.

I look forward to getting my Folkvangr…