Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

[rnros]

  Sorry. Call me simple. I don't get it. Not in art. And not in engineering.

Well, a lot of people have already voted for Schiit's vision and performance with their dollars. That's really all that needs to be said. This not a small number of 'Gullibles' or 'Delusionals,' but a growing market share that is critical and actively seeking higher audio experiences, in most cases, with limited dollar resources. A tough crowd, but Schiit challenged the status quo, and delivered. 
 
If Art challenges us and rewards us with a wider horizon and deeper perception, then this Schiit is Art. And the foundation for this success is the engineering vision and talent of the Schiit Team.
 
True, that there are so many situations and groups where, a long time ago, someone should have loudly said: "The Emperor has no clothes!"
Yeah, I will admit that sometimes a bent spoon or splattered canvas can have an important impact in a very limited context, guess you have to be there, or able to go there.
But in the larger scheme of things, a car is faster or it isn't, you land on the Moon or you don't, Schiit happens or it doesn't.
 
What really convinces me that I want to hear the Jotunheim topology, is that Schiit is willing to commit resources (dollars, time, reputation) to bring this to market and compete with the other stellar Schiit amps!

 

[Synergist969]

   Though I am not an engineer, nor an artist, I believe that well thought out design that maximizes function is engineering elegance...and thus its own form of art...not necessarily associated with physical aesthetics, and I TOO find this VERY attractive, voting with my very hard earned money...
 
    I only wish I had the financial wherewithal to contract with Schiit Audio to be able to suggest audio devices that might meet my personal wants/needs, and allow those involved to either reject the idea(s) as not sufficiently innovative, too restrictive, or for some other reason unfeasible, or design/manufacture them for myself/others as demand may occur...
 
    But again to reinforce...in my mind, ideally, function dictates form...

 

[yay101]

That's true, I also feel a certain level of the genius whether one off or by design in engineering is art.

As a software engineer I used to have my desktop covered in "art" which was snippets of code that solved real problems in elegant ways, regardless of usefulness outside of specific use the efficiency can be beautiful.

 

[disastermouse]

Schiit is seriously screwing worth me. I'm writing a book about the Jotnar right now and felt like the word 'Jotunheim' was something I just wouldn't see in the English-speaking world outside of my book. It's weird. Like seeing or hearing my own name (which is a rather rare name).

 

[manpowre]

Schiit is seriously screwing worth me. I'm writing a book about the Jotnar right now and felt like the word 'Jotunheim' was something I just wouldn't see in the English-speaking world outside of my book. It's weird. Like seeing or hearing my own name (which is a rather rare name).

Well my friend, Jotunheim is a famous mountain chain in middle of Norway.! excellent to go hiking!!!! the definetely best national park here.

 

[rtaylor76]

I think in A/V, the ability to do more and with more connectivity options. Also, the salesman were removed from the equation. Big box stores were the ones with all the sales, and the ones that sold were the ones that a) had fancy diplays, and b) were able to list a host of connectivity options on a card that stuck to the front of the unit.

In high-end, I have seen a big push out of any tech words that you mentioned, fewer specs listed, and more modern looking designs to please the eye. I think a market has too many players with high prices, hoping the high price and good looks is enough to make a sale. So you are pretty much right on the money. The form has taken over the function.

Also, the Pivot Point topology that is based on the Hawksford amplification, sounds a little like the Audio-gd A.C.S.S. topology. From Audio-gd's website:

"...a current working style which guarantees ultra low distortion. This special technique and circuit counteract the non-linearity caused by transistor....the voltage gain and the volume can be synchronously adjusted. Therefore, a high SNR and a low distortion are achieved...you can input XLR balanced signal or RCA unbalanced signal. No matter what kind of signal is input, it has the ability to transfer it to current signal and amplify it."

It also states this technology was introduced in 1996, the same year the Hawksford Abstract was published. I also see the volume knob of the Jotunheim looks like a quad volume pot.

I am not trying to call foul, I think this is actually very cool. I love to see innovations when it comes to this stuff, especially when you can address an area that has always been a problem for class A/B and B amps, which is crossover distortion. The trade-off was efficiency, but with these type designs it looks like there are only benefits. Well...I think heat becomes an issue with higher power. All that power in such a small space.

I am pretty sure Pivot Point topology in the 2-channel speaker amps, although Mike says they are not very pretty on the eyes. A donut hole perhaps? We shall see. I honestly don't care what the amps look like, as long as they sound good. I put my receiver in a cabinet and would put an amp behind everything anyway. Too bad I don't have pre-outs on my receiver....I must remedy this soon. I have power hungry acoustic suspension KEF 4 ohm speakers to drive...I NEED a bigger external amp.

 

[jacal01]

Also, the Pivot Point topology that is based on the Hawksford amplification...

 

  And why doesn't the production product have Hawksford linearization? Well, two reasons:
 

1. It uses a ton of parts. It made the gain stage so complex, it barely fit on the board. The layout was pretty compromised, especially since the early boards were 2-layer. (Production boards are 4-layer).
2. It can weld single-ended headphone plugs to the Neutrik jacks.

 
Yeah. Seriously on #2.
 
And so there you go. Design revision #1: ditch the linearized output stage.

 
Per Jason, their Pivot Point topology is not based on, and doesn't even include, the Hawksford crossover linearization circuitry.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

I think in A/V, the ability to do more and with more connectivity options. Also, the salesman were removed from the equation. Big box stores were the ones with all the sales, and the ones that sold were the ones that a) had fancy diplays, and b) were able to list a host of connectivity options on a card that stuck to the front of the unit.

In high-end, I have seen a big push out of any tech words that you mentioned, fewer specs listed, and more modern looking designs to please the eye. I think a market has too many players with high prices, hoping the high price and good looks is enough to make a sale. So you are pretty much right on the money. The form has taken over the function.

Also, the Pivot Point topology that is based on the Hawksford amplification, sounds a little like the Audio-gd A.C.S.S. topology. From Audio-gd's website:

"...a current working style which guarantees ultra low distortion. This special technique and circuit counteract the non-linearity caused by transistor....the voltage gain and the volume can be synchronously adjusted. Therefore, a high SNR and a low distortion are achieved...you can input XLR balanced signal or RCA unbalanced signal. No matter what kind of signal is input, it has the ability to transfer it to current signal and amplify it."

It also states this technology was introduced in 1996, the same year the Hawksford Abstract was published. I also see the volume knob of the Jotunheim looks like a quad volume pot.

I am not trying to call foul, I think this is actually very cool. I love to see innovations when it comes to this stuff, especially when you can address an area that has always been a problem for class A/B and B amps, which is crossover distortion. The trade-off was efficiency, but with these type designs it looks like there are only benefits. Well...I think heat becomes an issue with higher power. All that power in such a small space.

I am pretty sure Pivot Point topology in the 2-channel speaker amps, although Mike says they are not very pretty on the eyes. A donut hole perhaps? We shall see. I honestly don't care what the amps look like, as long as they sound good. I put my receiver in a cabinet and would put an amp behind everything anyway. Too bad I don't have pre-outs on my receiver....I must remedy this soon. I have power hungry acoustic suspension KEF 4 ohm speakers to drive...I NEED a bigger external amp.

A few points of clarification:
 
1. Pivot Point has nothing to do with current-output amp technologies, which I feel are fundamentally misguided. And it certainly doesn't crib from any other manufacturers (as we said, that we know of.) We are very precise with our use of language. When we say something is balanced, differential, it is. When we say something is fundamentally new (without research beyond our scope), it is.
2. Pivot Point has nothing to do with Hawksford linearization, which is not used in the production Jotunheim. Also, the Hawksford linearization I refer to is far, far older than 1996. Malcolm Hawksford has done a lot of good research.
3. Mike said that something was ugly, but not necessarily a power amp.
 
I guess it's time to go back to not commenting on future products, not even hints.

 

[FrivolsListener]

 
A few points of clarification:
 
1. Pivot Point has nothing to do with current-output amp technologies, which I feel are fundamentally misguided. And it certainly doesn't crib from any other manufacturers (as we said, that we know of.) We are very precise with our use of language. When we say something is balanced, differential, it is. When we say something is fundamentally new (without research beyond our scope), it is.
2. Pivot Point has nothing to do with Hawksford linearization, which is not used in the production Jotunheim. Also, the Hawksford linearization I refer to is far, far older than 1996. Malcolm Hawksford has done a lot of good research.
3. Mike said that something was ugly, but not necessarily a power amp.
 
I guess it's time to go back to not commenting on future products, not even hints.

 
Pft.  For all we know, he could be talking about your desk.  I think people are getting too wound up about stuff.

 

[Insidious Meme]

I guess it's time to go back to not commenting on future products, not even hints.

This. As much of a good thing to be on the pulse of customers, you've seen what happen when the train gets off the rails.

 

[KoshNaranek]

I guess it's time to go back to not commenting on future products, not even hints.

Don't spoil Mike's fun. He is just enjoying poking a stick into the ant's nest and watching us run around in confusion

 

[Vigrith]

I guess it's time to go back to not commenting on future products, not even hints.

I'm on my phone on holiday so it's hard to elaborate but I feel compelled to say - I love your interaction and community outreach, I would really appreciate if you do continue to comment on future products. It's very fun and interesting and a big part of why I am a user of these forums to begin with. I'm fairly new to Schiit (and proper audio [gear] in general) and have only been following your stories for a few months now but I don't intend on stopping. I am a colossal fan of the casual yet professional way you guys handle things.

Being a Lovecraft fanatic I hope Cthulhu is not strictly speaker related as my only speakers are Devialet Phantoms - Mike had me at "metastasizing on a desk near you", I can't wait to own one!

 

[jacal01]

True...true. My Audio-gd amp has a ton of parts, a large transformer, generates lots of heat...although it is only slightly bigger than an Asgard sized box and puts out about the same amount of power. It doesn't have balanced outputs, only single ended.

However, another striking similarity that my amp has a single dual channel op amp for DC offset removal, but the audio path is fully discrete.

Even Jason says, "*Now, let's be clear: there's lots and lots and lots of "design reuse" going on in audio." Just sayin'...I am surely believe that Jason created something new - but let's be honest, it wasn't out of thin air.

 
It think in terms of comparing the Pivot Point topology to the Audio-gd amp topology (or its ACSS output transmission), the key phrases in Jason's episode are:
 

 
Note on #4. This is the key to led us to an entirely new topology...one that Dave didn't even believe would work at all, and one that even I had trouble with accepting, even after extensive testing. This is our new "Pivot Point" differential current-feedback topology, which (as far as I know) is unique. More on this later.
...
 
Dave frowned. "I don't see how it can. What does the front end do when the output's at 20 volts and you have a gain of 1? It's seeing all of that voltage!"
 
"Yes, and it rides up on it. It makes the front end operate much more like a constant-voltage stage."

 
This makes me think that this is some type of current controlled gain stage (ala Questyle) rather than a current driven output stage, which is what the Audio-gd ACSS is.  This distinction was brought to my attention while I was dabbling in trying to riddle out the various current "mode" amp players' (Krell, Nelson Pass, Bakoon etc.) topologies.
 
Also Kingwa is fond of lots of power conditioning, explaining the multitude of parts, which I believe is also Krell's philosophy,   In fact I think that audio-gd amps are basically clones of Krell for the most part, and my Krell preamp is heavy, stuffed with parts, etc.  It has also a nearly identical case form and dimensions as my Audio-gd M7 DAC.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Originally Posted by jacal01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
This makes me think that this is some type of current controlled gain stage (ala Questyle) rather than a current driven output stage, which is what the Audio-gd ACSS is.  This distinction was brought to my attention while I was dabbling in trying to riddle out the various current "mode" amp players' (Krell, Nelson Pass, etc.) topologies.
 

Nope.
 
Key phrase is "entirely new."
 
Current output amps (with high output impedance), as I've mentioned before, I believe to be fundamentally flawed. I'd never design a current output amp. Same goes with preamps...you've now locked yourself into having a specified interface, rather than being widely compatible with everything else out there.
 
Jotunheim uses differential current feedback, yes, but it doesn't even conform to the classic description of a current-feedback amp (CFA), in that the negative terminal is not low impedance. Like I said, it appears to be new. No, I have not seen every topology in the world, nor do I know what every manufacturer is doing, but in my experience, I haven't seen another topology like it (and I use some pretty weird topologies.) Could I be wrong? Sure. Just as I said in the chapter.

 

[RoundRound]

Hello Guys,
Sorry to highjack the thread but I thought you guys might have a view for me. 
 
I'm looking for an affordable headphone amp to go with my Yggy (currently connected to ML speakers). I have two HP - not very demanding I think (150 Ohm & 32 Ohm). I'm considering the Asgard 2 or the Lyr 2 - my questions is which of those would sound better - the Lyr with the LISST tubes - specifically - would LISST sound better or worse than a 'dedicated' SS amp?
 
Thank you!