Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Feb 20, 2015 at 11:01 PM Post #5,416 of 150,453
"One audio venture that got funded ended up having the critical part for their product disappear before they could launch (the company that made it actually went out of business)."

Sounds like the silicone carbide transistor amplifier Sicphones.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1682246865/sicphones-a-high-end-silicon-carbide-headphone-amp/description
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 12:31 AM Post #5,417 of 150,453
  All I'm saying is you're talking out of your ass because you disagree with Steve's assessment of the Pono. Write your own glowing review so you can feel better about it.
 
You act like there are absolutes in this subjective hobby of ours. Get over yourself.

 
The review was demonstrably incompetent. He's done other incompetent reviews.  The Pono one just happens to be most topical right now given Jason's latest chapter.
 
On one hand he thinks he's helping to bridge the gap with articles championing lower cost gear like "This just in: Most audiophiles aren't rich".  Then with the other hand he burns bridges and creates divides.  He's incompetent and does more damage than good to audio and the hobby.  We'd be better off if he stopped reviewing audio altogether and went on to sell used cars.
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 12:46 AM Post #5,418 of 150,453
Mr.Stoddard,
 
You are quite right, I think! 
 
3 Months from now, Pono will be forgotten
                   or
mostly forgotten
                   or
something we're trying to forget and wishing to be forgotten. 
 
There has always been "sizzle" salespeople in consumer goods.  Those with integrity ( like Sennheiser ) will be still be with us decades from now, I hope Schiit will be there too, we should ignore the sizzlers ( they have a short half-life ).
 
Tony in Michigan
 
ps. Tyll just gave you a nice strong mention in "his" Pono piece! 
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 12:52 AM Post #5,419 of 150,453
Well, if you didn't own a Pono, I think we'd be able to conclude that you have an objective opinion. However it appears that you're just bitter because he doesn't like something that you like/own and you're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to post comments about how wrong we are for thinking this way. You've made your point that you don't agree and we get it.
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 1:58 AM Post #5,420 of 150,453
Well, if you didn't own a Pono, I think we'd be able to conclude that you have an objective opinion. However it appears that you're just bitter because he doesn't like something that you like/own and you're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to post comments about how wrong we are for thinking this way. You've made your point that you don't agree and we get it.

 
Clearly it's better to have people that don't own gear to comment about the gear.  Then you end up with impressions like Steve's.  If I didn't own it I don't know how I'd be able to reliably know that his review was so demonstrably incompetent.
 
This is an example of what incompetent reviews do to the hobby.  It's turned the entire topic about Pono toxic.  And part of that is Guttenberg's fault. He had an opportunity to lead by example with his review.  He chose to divide.  Incompetent reviews are harmful. Harmful to the company that makes the product.  Harmful to those who own it.  Harmful to those who might want to buy it.  Harmful to the hobby.  If you're a professional reviewer you have a responsibility to to it right. For the good of the hobby and the industry. Too many of Guttenberg's reviews are just plain wrong or just poorly done or completely inconsistent.
 
Eventually we'll get some proper reviews of the PonoPlayer by professional and competent reviewers.  But for now we're stuck.  The majority of national and published reviews so far have been by incompetents.  And as a mere owner of the product I'm apparently not eligible to comment about it or my credibility gets questioned.
 
The Pono was designed by Ayre.  It's not going to be as bad as the incompetents say it is.
 
Maybe Jason can do a chapter on Worst Reviewer Ever and talk about the damage that is done.
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 3:28 AM Post #5,421 of 150,453
I think much of the negative press, is Pono's own doing. When you make all these claims that make it sound like if you buy this it is going be like the the jump from high speed cassettes to CD's. Then the average person listens to one (or should I say hears music played on one) and can't tell any or at best only a minor difference, they feel it is more audio snake oil and a scam. Claiming something is a night and day difference really alienates people when the difference is minor. 
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 1:32 PM Post #5,424 of 150,453

Used Pono Players on Ebay:
 
About 30 of these players have sold on ebay since Dec.20th.  
 
Sold prices range from $300 to about $350. 
 
Early N.Young "Signature" versions sell for a bit more.  
 
Sooooo, if you impulsively buy one of these gizmos, you still have a chance of selling it!   You're not stuck with it, yet!!  
 
We'll see what "used" prices are 30 days from now.  
 
Tyll is now bracing us for his review of the Pono,  he just got one in the mail yesterday and did an un-boxing story.  
 
But
 
We already kinda know the darn thing can't compete with the Fiio Stuff or tries to compete with the Fiio and that it certainly doesn't live up to it's sizzle hype, no surprise there.
 
Tony in Michigan 
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 3:10 PM Post #5,425 of 150,453
  demonstrably incompetent. 

 
You keep saying this as though it's a fact. But, it's just a review you don't agree with about a product in which you have a personal investment in. If Pono disappears that sucks for you. I get it. 
 
That said, it is an actual fact that common denominator in all of the negative reviews is the Pono player itself. From what I can tell, you think the bad reviews should be attributed to a completely different common denominator than the player itself - a perceived "incompetence" on the part of the reviewers. That's a curious position to take. 
 
Pono was supposed to be "demonstrably" better than MP3s, the difference between being underwater with your music and soaring above the clouds. Pono's goal was to make high quality sound accessible to the masses, right? Compare those ridiculous claims with Schiit's marketing copy: "some listeners say Wyrd improves the sound of their system. We’re not going to make any such claims." 
 
Which pitch seems more credible? 
 
Keep in mind that the competition is an iPhone with an off-the-charts ease of use. In that context, it doesn't seem logical to take a reviewer to task for not using an aftermarket balanced headphone cable during a review. Even if its "common knowledge" ( among people who buy aftermarket cables ) that those headphones are much better when modified. If the product requires aftermarket cables, that's just another barrier to acceptance. 
 
If you want to appeal to the masses, you have to come to where they are. 
 
Schiit offers a great example of how you build credibility in a crowded marketplace. Under-promise, over-deliver. 
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 3:52 PM Post #5,426 of 150,453
  2015, Chapter 4:
Bridging the Gap
 
[...]

And there you go. Speculation on what went wrong with the most visible high-end product in decades. Some parallels to another industry that went sorta mainstream. Some thoughts on where we are now, and what we can do.
 
Is it definitive? Not by a long shot.
 
Will my recommendations work? I don’t know.
 
But I do know one thing: we ended up with a real drubbing with Pono. It’s in our best interests to ask why…and find ways to change that in the future. These are my thoughts, as penned on one random Tuesday in February.
 
How about yours?

 
I think Pono has three much bigger problems that have nothing to do with Neil Young or its marketing copy:
 
  • Streaming.
  • Apple.
  • People like me.
 
Streaming is straightforward: Buying music is rapidly being marginalized and falling out of the mainstream. Even the major players like the iTunes Music Store are seeing stagnation or a decline. Launching a new buy-and-download music store today is like launching a new film camera in 2005. You might get some niche customers, but it's probably on its way out.
 
 
Apple and people like me are related.
 
I get the feeling, especially when I went to a Head-Fi meet last fall, that people like me aren't entirely welcome around here, or at least don't fit in particularly well. I'm an Apple user and blogger. I'm not an electrical hobbyist. I don't believe in fancy cables. I don't modify my headphones. I just use iTunes to play (properly-)compressed files and would never consider a DAP. It was a longshot that I even bought a DAC, and I'm still not sure I hear a difference. When Jason charitably refers to "objectivists", I know I'm in that camp: I don't know if it's impossible to detect differences among certain component types, but I go into such evaluations assuming that I probably won't detect a difference, rather than the more common assumption around here that I will or should.
 
I'm not going to buy an amp that looks like a hobbyist kit in an ugly black box, because I'm not going to fill my desk with ugly equipment. I buy Schiit gear not only because it performs well, but because it's attractive and practical. When I got a Mjolnir, I upgraded from a Bifrost Uber to a Gungnir mostly so they would match and be stackable, not because I thought I'd notice a sound difference. (I haven't.) And I'd love the power switches to be moved to the front, even if it meant everything gets an inch wider and cost $25 more, because I don't want to leave these drawing 75W+ and emitting all of that heat constantly.
 
The "Apple" era of portable media devices, from the iPod to the iPhone and beyond — even including alternatives not made by Apple these days — has dramatically raised consumer expectations for attractive and thoughtful industrial design, hardware and software/UI quality, and integration with stores and web services. It's not enough to sound good or have good tech specs if you half-ass the rest of the product or can't meet people's minimum expectations for the category.
 
And a DAP needs to compete with the smartphone. The frickin' smartphone. Nobody comes at the smartphone and survives. The smartphone is at least the "good enough" version, and often the best version, of practically everything. Convincing people to buy, charge, and carry another device for something a smartphone can do is an extremely uphill battle that almost nobody can win.
 
Now, back to the Pono player.
 
Putting aside the entire issue of sound quality and tech specs, most reviewers agree that the Pono player just isn't very good in physical design, UI quality, and practicality. The sound-quality arguments are irrelevant because the Pono player is not a device that anyone looks at and says, "I want that. I need to buy that. Right now."
 
If it were a nice, desirable, practical device that people instinctively wanted, they'd make excuses to buy it. They'd hear a difference, regardless of whether there's one to hear. They'd make special jeans with triangular pockets and carry it around. People would make excuses claiming that the lack of a Hold button is a feature, not a bug.
 
The simple truth is that if we want great personal audio to reach the mainstream, we need to understand the mainstream. We need to understand why people choose what they do, not just assume that they're idiots. Nobody who thinks they just need to "educate customers" has ever won. The customers don't need to be educated. We do.
 
Great headphones need to get more attractive, practical, portable, comfortable, and affordable. We need to stop writing off techy features like Bluetooth and ANC that people strongly demand. (Why does anyone buy Bose? Because they think they need ANC on planes, and nobody will convince them otherwise. Why does anyone use Bluetooth headphones? Because they ever have, and once you ever do, it's hard to go back.)
 
Beats and Bose succeed not because people are idiots, but because better-sounding alternatives aren't meeting people's other demands as well. The best-selling premium headphones are closed-back, relatively portable, low-impedance models with good isolation, short (or no) cables, iPhone remotes, and sometimes ANC for under $400. Why aren't there more Head-Fi-level headphones in this range? Why is one guy like me able to try and review almost that entire category?
 
As for amps, DACs, and DAPs, that's a much harder question. I think targeting the portable market is a losing bet — you'll never overcome the smartphone barrier. Instead, target people at desks. People working at a computer all day in noisy "open" offices, and people trying to get work done at home, are booming markets. Sell them inexpensive audio gear that can make their inexpensive or medium-priced closed headphones sound great. Schiit has much of this market locked up — why are there so few other good choices?
 
And if Schiit wants to get even more of it — granted, that's a big "if" — it'll probably require some concessions. Power buttons on the front? A Magni/Modi-level integrated DAC/amp? Trendy features like Bluetooth? More tubes to appeal to hipsters? Possibly. They already have the industrial design down — that's a huge advantage in the otherwise desolate wasteland of ugly, geeky-looking premium-audio products. The market is theirs to lose.
 
(Smartphone apps? Please, for the love of all that is good in the world, never do that. App-controlled electronics are an abomination. I hate apps and any hardware that depends on an app for any meaningful features. And I make apps for a living.)
 
We do need to fix the hostility and snobbery to keep people once they show an interest. But the products first need to bring more people in the door. Because everyone keeps walking through the Bose and Beats doors instead for very good reasons that we need to appreciate. Make truly compelling products, and the rest will take care of itself.
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 3:57 PM Post #5,427 of 150,453
The review was demonstrably incompetent. He's done other incompetent reviews.  The Pono one just happens to be most topical right now given Jason's latest chapter.

On one hand he thinks he's helping to bridge the gap with articles championing lower cost gear like "This just in: Most audiophiles aren't rich".  Then with the other hand he burns bridges and creates divides.  He's incompetent and does more damage than good to audio and the hobby.  We'd be better off if he stopped reviewing audio altogether and went on to sell used cars.


I was amused to read in his beyer P90 review that my T1's are closed back. My wife will be so relieved that she won't be hearing my music second hand anymore.
 
Feb 21, 2015 at 6:00 PM Post #5,428 of 150,453
The thing that bothers me isn't the procuct, its the marketing.

I will use 2 examples Beats, and Pono same as Jason used, with a few different reasonings.

The reason why Beats are so bashed, is the sound to price. Non-audiophiles (or people new to real headphones) are led to believe that these are the best you can buy, highest quality, best sounding, plus the product stantment, and the name. I tried a pair of studio pro 2s, they weren't bad, just bassy, trebbly bit muddy and not worth $300. Idk about you but my $189 premodded T50RPs blow the doors off many many cans, even price higher. But when a non-audiophile listens to them, the most common quote is "these suck, where's the bass? Or " these look terrible". Fact is that my tune is actually even bass heavy. 2nd reason is that chances are, its the only headphone that they've heard of being good, not hearing the schennhiser name, or some of the (believe it or not) fantastic on ear Bose you can get for $120.

So now the Pono player. $400. Let's just play the dreaded spec games. Its roughly equal to the Fiio x1. Now the dreaded price game, its equal to the Fiio X5. If you know what an X5 is, you'd pick it any day of the week. USB DAC/amp function alone is awesome.

But 1: the targeted Ponoplayer market has never heard of Fiio, and 2: the people who have, know better, and 3: the target audience was promised sound like never before heard, but it takes an audiophile with reference grade cans to hear it.

I heard a big difference with my Uber stack vs my sound card on my T50RPs, but no one else in my family can. Even so, I myself even have trouble hearing the difference between iTunes and CD quality on the 50/uber stack. The Ponoplayer promises the world, but to the average person, delivers no more then a phone can, and for the audiophiles, the same quality with way more features can be found for lower price.

So its no surprise that the Ponoplayer is bashed, and Beats are laughed apon in the audiophile community.

But it isnt just audio that things like this happens. Assassins creed Unity, good example. HUGE hype, all the ore-orders. Comes out, and it barely functions on PC, and turns out (surprise, surprise) its just a rehash if the other 5 games. Does it mean its a bad game? No, if you can get by the rehash and bugs (I don't like assassins creed). Its not bad, the city is down right a work of pure art. But it was voted in the Top 5 worst games of the year by many many reviewers.

In the end, it comes to over promising, exploiting customers lack of knowlage (charging huge $$, or getting away with saying its the best) or trying to target an audience that can't understand. In the case of the Ponoplayer, it does a bit of all three. Again does it mean that its bad? Other then a lack of storage I don't see why it would be. Just (I think) you could get more from the x5 for the same price.
 

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