[jcx]

look again?
Quote:

 

   
I have taken some heat from Mike for daring to discuss some dither theory with respect to DAC implementations when questions from other thread participants introduced the subject

I don't see how dither is relevant to DACs, as opposed to ADCs. When applied at the source, dither replaces artifacts by uncorrelated noise. Once the signal is encoded, its bits are the most one can now about the original signal, and additional dither at the DAC would only increase the noise level. If the source was not dithered, tough, but the DAC has no way of "knowing" that, as any pattern of LSBs could be the result of just a bunch of unlikely coin tosses while dithering the source.

 
Dither is the recommended practice for digital audio any time wordlengths are reduced, which does happen in the consumer DAC end of the signal chain too.
 
 
There are (at least) three scenarios I can quickly come up with:
 
24 bit "hi rez" source meeting 16 or 20 bit R2R DAC chips, when these 24 bit digital audio streams reach a 16 or 20 bit R2R DAC chip the frimware in standalone DAC product should be dithering.
 
When the DAC itself applies digital processing, even starting from a 16 bit digital audio stream, which happens in every digitally filtered oversampling system including Schiit's R2R 16 and 20 bit DAC products.
Even with the "bit perfect dammit", "megaburitto" filter all of the n-1 interpolated samples' bit resolution are longer than DAC chip wordlengths - only the nth "original" samples can be "bit perfect" and only with 16 bit source will that fraction of the upsampled data fit the R2R DAC chip resolution.
 
And computer based digital source, streamers today do give the option apply digital volume and should be set to send out 24 bits, even from a 16/44 file to take full advantage of digital volume.
 
 
Mike's talk of rounding instead of truncating really sounds anachronistic to those familiar with recommended for the last few decades digital audio practice.
 
 
I believe that given the numbers and Psychoacoustics that listening to the conventional consumer audio DAC 2 Vrms fs output with sensitive iem, appropriate digital volume turn down for a unity gain amp/output, should make 16 bit rounding vs dither audible to some.
 
 Bob Katz seems to me a credible source, does claim dither is an audible improvement over rounding, some commentary on his blog, more in his book http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Audio-Science-Bob-Katz/dp/0240818962

 

[Bazile]

 
But...but...the resolution becomes infinite! We'll expand our perception into non-euclidian dimensions! Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth!

I notice semi-frequent references to H. P. Lovecraft. Any chance he had a secret second occupation and is the anonymous author of the paper that inspired Mr. Moffat's filter?

 

[Jason Stoddard]

  I notice semi-frequent references to H. P. Lovecraft. Any chance he had a secret second occupation and is the anonymous author of the paper that inspired Mr. Moffet's filter?

I just had a horrible vision of a H. P. Lovecraft pastiche connecting high-end audio to some great hidden conspiracy about opening perceptual gates to the Elder Gods. Fortunately, I think I'm not motivated enough to write it.

 

[Baldr]

  I notice semi-frequent references to H. P. Lovecraft. Any chance he had a secret second occupation and is the anonymous author of the paper that inspired Mr. Moffet's filter?

 Aw, Schiit - finally busted!  Also, the inverted stars and swinging dead chickens around our heads under the light of the full moon.  Hence the random demonic activity surrounding all who speak evil of us.

 

[kostaszag]

 

  I notice semi-frequent references to H. P. Lovecraft. Any chance he had a secret second occupation and is the anonymous author of the paper that inspired Mr. Moffet's filter?

 Aw, Schiit - finally busted!  Also, the inverted stars and swinging dead chickens around our heads under the light of the full moon.  Hence the random demonic activity surrounding all who speak evil of us.

Yaaaa!!!!Shub Nigurath!!!!Schiit fhtagn ph'nglui mglw'nafh!!!!
 
(sorry, could not resist the temptation 

 )

 

[Argo Duck]

Finally, a testable prediction! Because - you know - that's how science works. Theory without prediction is just talk, no matter how 'credible'.

I look forward to results...

I believe that given the numbers and Psychoacoustics that listening to the conventional consumer audio DAC 2 Vrms fs output with sensitive iem, appropriate digital volume turn down for a unity gain amp/output, should make 16 bit rounding vs dither audible to some.

 

[RCBinTN]

Very interesting thread, as always.
IMO, the MQA technology could succeed as the replacement for MP3 compression.  Because it may sound better than MP3 or AAC.  Compressed music is what sells (not to the audiophile group) to the masses. Don't write it off, just yet.

 

[ScottFree]

  Very interesting thread, as always.
IMO, the MQA technology could succeed as the replacement for MP3 compression.  Because it may sound better than MP3 or AAC.  Compressed music is what sells (not to the audiophile group) to the masses. Don't write it off, just yet.

 

 

[yay101]

Very interesting thread, as always.
IMO, the MQA technology could succeed as the replacement for MP3 compression.  Because it may sound better than MP3 or AAC.  Compressed music is what sells (not to the audiophile group) to the masses. Don't write it off, just yet.

I could see this happening if it were a open codec.

When was the last time anyone here paid for a mp3 licence for personal use?

 

[earnmyturns]

  You can't subtract the noise out unless you know what it is exactly, and since it's random ... Instead you have to reduce noise with averaging since the uncorrelatedness will give you a 3dB reduction with each averaging. Is it useful for music? No idea, but if there is a narrow signal, and you (the human) listen hard enough, you can pick it out. It's about getting the technical stuff out of the way so you let the human hearing system use as much of its native abilities as possible.

Oops, I used "subtract out" in an informal sense of "removing", not in the algebraic sense. Thanks for the correction.

 

[earnmyturns]

I could see this happening if it were a open codec.

When was the last time anyone here paid for a mp3 licence for personal use?

Actually, we all pay for mp3 licenses in the sense that all gadgets that implement mp3 are subject to patent licenses on the underlying technology, which are folded into the gadget's price. But there are constraints on how much those licenses can cost as a quid pro quo of basing the standard on them, while MQA can charge whatever the market will bear.

 

[yay101]

Actually, we all pay for mp3 licenses in the sense that all gadgets that implement mp3 are subject to patent licenses on the underlying technology, which are folded into the gadget's price. But there are constraints on how much those licenses can cost as a quid pro quo of basing the standard on them, while MQA can charge whatever the market will bear.

Indeed, but you can install Linux on a device you made yourself, or on a device that existed before mp3, install any free media player you want on it play mp3 files until the end of time. The same cannot be said for mqa, if they think charging OEMs for it is going to work they may want to think again.

 

[chipwelder]

It sounds more like JVC XRCD mixed with hdcd and dolby noise reduction then only vbr mp3 ... except like proprietary... and not useful until you stream to ultra-fi...

 

[artur9]

 
But...but...the resolution becomes infinite! We'll expand our perception into non-euclidian dimensions! Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth!

So, is the new 2channel line going to be named after Cthulhu mythos things?
 
Can't wait for the Nyarlathotep and the Dagon!  And multi-channel can be Shub-Niggurath.
 
The howls of protests about the pronunciation of the Yggdrasil will pale in comparison.

 

[yay101]

So, is the new 2channel line going to be named after Cthulhu mythos things?

Can't wait for the Nyarlathotep
 and the Dagon!  And multi-channel can be [COLOR=252525]Shub-Niggurath.[/COLOR]

The howls of protests about the pronunciation of the Yggdrasil will pale in comparison.

I hope at least 1 product line is literally the "redacted".