[JWMAstro]

Personally I have only been able to hear a few very random dacs, like the bifrost uber, my dad's old goldmund dac for his speaker set up, my computer of course, and the ipod classic. Obviously the main comparison being bifrost uber to my dad's old dac. And despite one being used with speakers and the other with headphones, I could still hear the familiar aspects in the sound that I know are there because of a good dac, and what parts get affected by different amps. On top of that I have definitely talked to people with more listening experience who felt the order of sound influence in a chain goes: headphone first, amp second, and dac third. Which to a degree makes sense, since as long as a dac is well made, tuned to be relatively neutral, and has the right input implementations, it shouldn't really be doing too much to the sound other than converting it into analog properly. Different amps have a lot more variables involved, and those variables can have much more significant changes to the sound. An easy way to demonstrate this is use a bad amp with a good dac and you'll get bad/ not so great sound (depending on headphones of course), but use a good amp with an ok dac and you'll get a pretty good sound in comparison.

I think it is a fully important thing to establish that both good speakers and good headphones need servicing by good electronics. I began with headphones in the 1960s and still have a pair of Koss K6s somewhere ( mostly used to avoid irritating roommates or parents), although the vast majority of my time has been spent listening to (often) good to great speakers. I have been really impressed with modern headphones though to the degree that almost all my listening is with them now despite having great speakers. On the occasions that I do use speakers, I expect the electronics to provide clear and musical signals. I agree that amp design and match to the sonic transducer (speakers or headphones) is critical. The DAC is isolated in the electronics chain by the amp and has a very much less challenging load to drive. Thus a great DAC should always be great, no matter how it is used.

 

[JWMAstro]

This thread is genius from a marketing standpoint. Of course Jason is Centric founder and an accomplished entrepreneur. I'm willing to bet this thread gets them more customers and nice remarks than any other advertising they do. Kudos Jason. (It's also just darn fun to read!)

Yep! Both the knowledge value and enjoyment value are exceptionally high!

 

[JWMAstro]

Haha! you made me look! good one

I believe this is a photo from Hewlett-Packard in the 1950s when they made systems for Hughes AIM-4 Falcon air-to-air missiles. The person twitching the knob is an inspector who is one of those enlisted to keep each of the meters within a specified range, not knowing that the marked ranges meant nothing and that the meters were just reading a voltage from the potentiometer he was adjusting. The whole thing was designed to use up extra panel meters and at the same time make the inspectors happy.

 

[JWMAstro]

OK folks, having a little bit of an inside line, here's one of the new products - introducing the Schiit Li'l Wooden Head DAC!:







(Actually, this is my DAC that I got a local woodworker to make the lovely chassis for - all credit to him. His name is Ken Burton, for anyone in the Eastern PA area interested in beautiful things made of wood.)

Beautiful!

 

[JWMAstro]

Hmm, lots of good discussion here. So let's talk a bit more about some of the things presented here. It might give you a better idea of how we develop products, and some of the things we take into consideration when doing so.

Two notes, first:

1. This does not indicate any new products that we're going to come out with; it's only discussion.
2. Sorry if I didn't include your idea--this is a top-of-mind thing, so it won't be all-inclusive.

So, on to the discussion.

Passive pre with stepped attenuator. Hmm. This is a great example of a well-presented business case. It hits all the high points: that we already have the technology, that the competition is limited and pricey, and that we don't already supply an attenuator for balanced systems. We've talked about this, but more in the context of putting a 4-gang pot in a box. Which, in a Bifrost-sized box (necessary for the balanced connectors, etc) could easily come out being $199--a big step up from the Sys. Swap the pot for relays, a microprocessor and programming, and add a couple of inputs, and the necessary wall-wart to run the micro and relays, and you could look at $299. Aaannd--might you want a simple buffer option? Or even a gain stage option? Making it modular makes it customizable--but also dictates that you have a good power supply to run the active stages. Add more money...

Add a remote control...this is where things get sticky. There are two choices here.

a. The first is to use a standard IR remote (which needs to be sourced) and register the control codes for it. Not a giant deal, but tedious, and could easily add another $100. And the remotes are usually the first thing to break. Or be lost. Or whatever. And most look like ass. Machined aluminum remote? Price keeps going up.

b.The second choice is to use, say, a Bluetooth receiver and do an app to run it. More complexity, more software, more compatibility issues with 8000 version of Android, and the interminable back and forth with Apple. Again, not impossible, but it does add complexity.

Headphone stands. Yep, looked into it. Sketched some up. Got costs. They're surprisingly pricey. Think retail more like $40-50, not $20. Plus, they're big and unwieldy to ship. So, without going to Chinese metal and licensing Tardis technology from Dr. Who, I don't think this is going to happen. There are plenty of attractive entries on the market out there, including ones that are adjustable, etc. So, we abandoned this as something that was too expensive and me-too--valuable only in context of ego.

ADC. Hmm...interesting idea, not sure how big the market is outside of the pro space, not sure about what the price points are. This one would require more investigation as to what's out there, what the performance is like, what people really need, and how big the market is. I do know that, with the commonly available ADC chips, the options on this side would be relatively limited unless you wanted to get into the megadollar realm—and I'm talking prices that would probably get into 5 figures.

DAP. Already talked about this. Nope. Too complex software-wise, don't know what we'd do to differentiate, huge software and support costs, devices prone to breakage because they're being carried around, and the danger of Apple deciding to step into high-res. Not us.

Portables. Ha, we've talked a lot about this one. The problem is finding a key and meaningful differentiator. The problem with most portables these days (in our view) is that they use one or more switching supplies (either deriving a negative rail off of a larger 7.4V-11V battery, or deriving both rails off a 3.7V battery.) Switching supplies are pretty yucky in terms of high-frequency noise, especially in a small box. I'm not saying it's impossible to get good audio band measurements, but the out of band noise may not be so great. Doing a portable with two 7.4V batteries and no switcher would be interesting, but it makes charging it a royal PITA—you're talking a linear charger, some complex charge management tricks, and complex switching so you could have some hope of listening to it while charging.

Media server/player. Yep, we've experimented with a number of headless servers/players, mainly so we can get rid of the "6000 computers on a desk" at trade shows. The comments on apps apply here as well, as do the challenges of a rapidly changing hardware environment. It's also a complex, kinda bleeding-edge product that would have significant impact on our customer support needs. There are a lot of questions to be answered about sound quality as well. However, there may be a business case kinda in-line with the stepped-attenuator preamp—limited competition, high prices. No promises here, just blue-skying.

Of course, two final notes:

1. The real win is finding a product that people are not asking for at all—they don't know they want it until they see it. This is the hardest one to crack. Think about smartphones before the iPhone—they were a set design, small keyboard, stylus (or not), etc. iPhone changed everything. I knew instantly when they showed the "swipe to unlock" that I'd be getting rid of my Treo as soon as they were available. But before then, I wouldn't have considered a phone without a keyboard. Or consider the iPad--who knew that throwing away functionality that was present on the ink-enabled Windows tablets of the day would result in an explosive product category? Direct input from any amount of customers, expert consultants, etc. will never result in a breakthrough product like these.

2. I've been asked many times, "How do you come up with products in the absence of input from customers (as in, crowdsourcing, etc.). The answer is simple: we don't. We're aware of the discussion on the forums, we're aware of what people are asking for, we know the market pretty well, and we get plenty of direct requests. With that input, we make decisions about what is relevant (such as, say, gain switching) and what isn't (like seventeen colors and 50 options) based on what we know about manufacturability and inventory impact. If our decisions are right, we win. If we don't, well, hey, nobody's perfect, and there's nobody forcing you to buy it.

I guess what I'm saying is that we do pay attention, and we experiment with quite a few things, but many of them may never become a real product. Reliability and support are things that can't be afterthoughts, so we tend to weigh those pretty heavily when developing new products. For example, our DACs do work with Android, using USB OTG and Audio Player Pro. However, many devices will need an external powered hub. And some still have unacceptable glitches. For this reason, we waited a long time before we announced this compatibility, and even then, we couched it in very measured terms—as in, "we haven't tested everything, but here's what we know."

Excellent summary of the new-product thought process.

 

[JWMAstro]

I'm hoping that Schiit continues to bring new products that make improved sound accessible to the general public. It's not difficult to find a CD/DVD player for a reasonable price where you can output digital directly to a preexisting Schiit DAC. I don't think there is a lot of room for improving budget-minded audio fidelity with another player option.

As for new gear that has a direct impact on providing improved fidelity to the general public, I think there is a lot of room for Schiit to make consumer-grade products that integrate into consumer-grade audio systems that can make a definite improvement in audio fidelity for the average person.

For example, I can't think of any graphic equalizers that come in a non-pro form factor (i.e., rackmount with 1/4" TRS or XLR connectors). A desktop 31-band stereo graphic equalizer with RCA inputs at a reasonable price would offer tangible results in improving the fidelity of the average-joe's audio system. These days the consumer graphic EQ is all but extinct. The options are No EQ or trying to integrate a rackmount pro-audio solution with TRS or XLR connectors. How does one dial in room correction for their stereo without EQ? How does one correct the frequency balance of their headphones without EQ?

The same can be said for a stereo 2/way cross over. Only options seem to be buy an AVR with DSP, or buy a rackmount pro audio crossover and fumble around with rca-to-XLR/TRS connectors. I have a 2.1 setup with powered speakers and a powered sub. You can't find a powered sub in the < $500 range that has highpass filtered line level outputs for feeding powered monitors. I had to choose between my monitor's woofers jumping out of the enclosure during the cannon blasts in the 1812 overture or placing a rackmount crossover on my desk next to modi and getting the requisite rca-xlr and xlr-rca connectors to hook it all together.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Cheers

Thanks for the Paul Graham reference.

 

[JWMAstro]

I used the Griffin iMic for years to digitize cassettes. But they clearly state on their site they will not provide tech specs or details. As they say, for a $40 product they retain the right to swap things around to hit that price. http://griffintechnology.com/suppor...ac-and-pc?backref=node/626&backref_title=iMic

But hell, it’s cassette. The source material is crappy enough it doesn't matter.

The iMic finally bit the bullet, so I swapped to a Behringer U-CONTROL UCA222. 2-in, 2-out, headphone amp, USB-to-Toslink SPDIF: all for around $40. But the only tech spec is "up to 48k", whatever that means in context.

But hell, it’s only cassettes, right?

Well, I'm about to resurrect my old Oracle Delphi turntable and delve back into my collection of obscure Canadian punk rock that never leapt the digital divide.

Now it matters.

I’d love a dedicated ADC in the $100 - $250 range that lets me choose between 16/44.1, 16/48, or 24/96. Again, it's vinyl. I don't see a need for anything higher. No need for the RIAA stage, either - you’re making one to sell separately, and I still have a perfectly suitable Museatex PA-6 preamp with MM input.

Sounds like an excellent use-case for those with lots of obscure records (me).

 

[JWMAstro]

Thanks for the Paul Graham reference.

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

 

[JWMAstro]

Pabst Blue Ribbon

Schiit beer for sure! I couldn't resist.

 

[JWMAstro]

Ha. No. 50W x 2 in an A2-sized chassis really won't happen.

1. Even with the biggest toroid that will fit, you're WAAAYY under-transformered. Think 100VA max in that size chassis. You really want 300VA for 50x2.
2. Fans or big heatsinks (besides the transformer problem, let's say you under-transformer it--even then, heat is a BIG problem.)
3. About 2x your target cost, even under-transformered, with fan noise as a bonus.

Sorry, that's reality.

Reality bites ( or is Schiit if you prefer).

 

[JWMAstro]

Just a few photos of what Schiit looks like today.



My messy office.



Listening area.



Shipping area from the back.



Main stock, from back.



Tony's desk.



Jesse's desk.



My office, from back.



Bill's Fortress of Solitude (aka listening test area.)



The new space--eventually with 2-3 push lines.



Mile's assembly area. Very minimal.



New space, from the back.



Main stock, looking through to new area.



Main stock, from back.



View from side with smaller stock shelves.



Shipping from side.



Eddie's customized work area (he painted the walls black.)

I missed Mike's office and some more of the new space, but you get the idea...it ain't a garage anymore!

Those are some massive headphones in the listening-area photo!

 

[45longcolt]

Just because it's Monday...

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Just a few photos of what Schiit looks like today.



My messy office.



Listening area.



Shipping area from the back.



Main stock, from back.



Tony's desk.



Jesse's desk.



My office, from back.



Bill's Fortress of Solitude (aka listening test area.)



The new space--eventually with 2-3 push lines.



Mile's assembly area. Very minimal.



New space, from the back.



Main stock, looking through to new area.



Main stock, from back.



View from side with smaller stock shelves.



Shipping from side.



Eddie's customized work area (he painted the walls black.)

I missed Mike's office and some more of the new space, but you get the idea...it ain't a garage anymore!

Not a lot has changed in the eight years since.
Also: A lot has changed in the eight years since.

 

[chronoso]

Never heard of this band. I lived a musically sterile life as a highschooler in the 90s.

Im 56 seconds into track 1 as I type this. An accordion or old pedal organ kicks in. I'm entranced already. Looking forward to rest of it.. A muted trumpet, other weirdness. Cool stuff.

I just sat back down at my desk for an evening of work for my FTJ... thanks for helping combat the depression.

Pipe organs, zanzithophone, fuzz bass, singing saw, euphonium, uilleann pipes, just whatever weird sounds they could get. Love this album. On Avery Island is also great, as is Live at Jittery Joe's though in a far more stripped down acoustic way.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Not a lot has changed in the eight years since.
Also: A lot has changed in the eight years since.

Same ugly carpet!

Except yeah, now we have about 6x the space, divided between 2 states. And no carpet in Texas.