[wout31]

Agreed, and it's important that the speed of the subwoofer be in the same league as the main speakers, and the crossover point and slopes are critical too. And the placement of the sub is super critical. With two subs placement becomes less critical.

There is that oh so popular word again "speed".
A speaker designer can spend a lot of time to get at least some coherency in the set of drivers and filters in 1 box speaker. It takes lots of knowledge, software, hardware and time to build a decent speaker. None of these drivers have the same "speed" as mass varies, as does coil, airgap, material, design, construction etc etc.
Now we place a sub and add a whole new dimension to the equasion.
It is just part of the loudness war.

 

[pinkfloyd4ever]

There is that oh so popular word again "speed".
A speaker designer can spend a lot of time to get at least some coherency in the set of drivers and filters in 1 box speaker. It takes lots of knowledge, software, hardware and time to build a decent speaker. None of these drivers have the same "speed" as mass varies, as does coil, airgap, material, design, construction etc etc.
Now we place a sub and add a whole new dimension to the equasion.
It is just part of the loudness war.

Wait, what does any of that have to do with the loudness war?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

 

[wout31]

Wait, what does any of that have to do with the loudness war?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

"increasing audio levels in recorded music, which reduces audio fidelity, and according to many critics, listener enjoyment."
A sub increases audio levels of the bass tones.
Your speakers are also part of the chain of reproducing recorded music.

 

[pinkfloyd4ever]

"increasing audio levels in recorded music, which reduces audio fidelity, and according to many critics, listener enjoyment."
A sub increases audio levels of the bass tones.
Your speakers are also part of the chain of reproducing recorded music.

I think you're still misunderstanding what the loudness war is. It's the result of the escalating tendency of recording studios to compress the dynamic range of recordings and increase the overall loudness, to make their artists music sound more exciting than that of the competition.

Here are a few videos that explain it better than I can:

(~2 min, but doesn't explain the whole thing that well IMO)

(~5 min, well worth the time for any audiophile)

(~11 min, highly recommended if you have the time)

It doesn't really have to do with the equipment the listener plays their music back on.

Adding a subwoofer just enables your system as a whole to reproduce the lowest octave or two of the audible frequency range to roughly equal SPL as the low-mids through the highest highs. This is very different from dynamic range compression and boosted loudness, which is what people are referring to when they speak of the "loudness wars".

 

[wout31]

I know what it means on the recording side, but IMHO it doesn't stop there.
You want to level out the lowest two octaves? Well the simple answer is: you can't, because that is how our hearing works. The more you put in there to try and accomplish that the more compression your ears and your brain will apply to compensate and to prevent from harm.
And there you are: loudness war. The longer you listen the worse it gets.

 

[pinkfloyd4ever]

I know what it means on the recording side, but IMHO it doesn't stop there.
You want to level out the lowest two octaves? Well the simple answer is: you can't, because that is how our hearing works. The more you put in there to try and accomplish that the more compression your ears and your brain will apply to compensate and to prevent from harm.
And there you are: loudness war. The longer you listen the worse it gets.

What you're referring to is loudness as in the Fletcher-Munson loudness curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

This is a totally different and unrelated subject from the "loudness wars"

 

[sduford]

Also realize that "speed" is not a technical criteria for speakers. What is perceived as "speed" is actually created by transient response and group-delay in the room.

That may be but I can tell you that when trying to design a pair of subs for a pair of Magnepan MG2s many many moons ago most woofers sounded so slow and mushy they couldn't properly be blended with the Magnepans, the change from one to the other was so obvious it detracted from the experience. I did eventually find a pair of 30cm Dynaudio drivers that allowed a very satisfying blend. If I remember correctly I had them crossed over at 60 HZ, the high-pass at 12db/octave and the low pass at 18db/octave.

It took a ton of experimentation to make it work correctly. Whether or not it was "speed", it sure sounded like it.

 

[yonson]

YES. This x1000


Dual Aegirs for LS50s? Idk, Aegir mono is rated at 80wpc into 8 ohms, but with no rating mono rating at 4ohms. Yes the LS50 is rated nominal 8 ohms, but dips as low as 3.2 ohms.

The dual Aegirs could work, but if it were me I think I'd go with a single Vidar over dual Aegirs for LS50s. If you have the credit to swing it, it would be cool to buy a Vidar and 2 Aegirs at once, and try it both ways. See which you like best, and return the losing amp(s) within the return window. Or resell it. And by all means, report back to us here and let us know your thoughts.

Aegir in 4 ohm mono WILL go into overcurrent VERY easily, I wanted to try them on my Dyns, however a guy on another forum tried them on his Focus 260's and they would go into overcurrent at under 85 dB at listening position which is a no go for me...

 

[gikigill]

That may be but I can tell you that when trying to design a pair of subs for a pair of Magnepan MG2s many many moons ago most woofers sounded so slow and mushy they couldn't properly be blended with the Magnepans, the change from one to the other was so obvious it detracted from the experience. I did eventually find a pair of 30cm Dynaudio drivers that allowed a very satisfying blend. If I remember correctly I had them crossed over at 60 HZ, the high-pass at 12db/octave and the low pass at 18db/octave.

It took a ton of experimentation to make it work correctly. Whether or not it was "speed", it sure sounded like it.

Same here, a set of semi-custom e-stats that are super hard to blend in with a sub. Finally got 2 8" subs that can keep up with the e-stats.

 

[corndog71]

If you want a fast sub made for music then get one or two of these. Servo controlled. When set up right they bring a whole new dimension to music and are great for home theater too.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

 

[Rensek]

Ive had LRSs in house for about a month. Its simply amazing how good these sound bass wise with rock/pop/Electronic when utilizing a Loki. I cant imagine a sub sounding better then a little eq, without spending lots of time and money.

 

[Ripper2860]

As owner of a Rhythmik L12 sub, I feel very comfortable recommending Rhythmik.

 

[tincanear]

Ive had LRSs in house for about a month. Its simply amazing how good these sound bass wise with rock/pop/Electronic when utilizing a Loki. I cant imagine a sub sounding better then a little eq, without spending lots of time and money.

those are driven with Vidar and/or Ragnarok 2 ?

 

[Rensek]

As owner of a Rhythmik L12 sub, I feel very comfortable recommending Rhythmik.

And i feel comfortable taking your advice, bcowen be damned

 

[Rensek]

those are driven with Vidar and/or Ragnarok 2 ?

yes. if you crank it to 11with loki engaged bass needs to be toned down as bass on the LRS can get bloatey when EQd, but for 70-90 db listening loki works pretty darn well. Pleasant into the mid 30s. when running a tone sweep I can hear the LRS play 20hz tones, but its not what i would call loud.or controlled.

A few pages back someone mentioned loki as a tone control, that would essentially be what im doing.