Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

[Exacoustatowner]

  I agree, for most intents and purposes.  I characterized the speed of light thing as the musings of a ten year old.  With all the poles stacked against you though, obvious and otherwise, I really do think there is a degradation of SQ in the form of harmonic distortion components and in spatial distortion components that can be associated with too much feedback, which feedback is the easy solution to having a stable circuit.  The time delays as a function of frequency (phase non-linearity) of the filter poles are real, and reduction of those sources of non-linearity is, IMHO, a desirable pursuit.  After all, we're looking for the last tiny percentage in SQ and we find ourselves in the realm of systems that measure well, and don't sound particularly good.  I'm just hypothesizing that the last bit of SQ lives in the spatial realm; This is a Schiit thread, and Mike and Jason both have said as much in their posts.  The ten year old in me is still bothered by the speed of light thing, and you did give a bit of a nod to that with "assumes that the circuit is physically small enough".  If you get the physical size and environment of the amplifier just wrong enough it will go into full scale oscillation at the resonant frequency of the tank and do really bad things, like all the smoke getting out of the high power components.
 
Thanks for the reply!!

Interesting discussion! Be aware though- ALL amps sound the same to StanD and he has data to back up his claim!

 

[520RanchBro]

I think we need something truly revolutionary.
 
Schiit should make a high-end cassette player, drop everything.

 

[Taowolf51]

  You'll definetly need an Amp with that. Jason has expressed a disdain for getting involved with batteries, maybe he'll change his mind.

 
I hope he does, when it comes to a portable smartphone DAC/Amp unless you're running something extremely low power (like onboard stuff), having it be powered by the smartphone isn't really a good idea. These days, smartphones have awful battery life in the name of large screens and thinness (I'm a fan of the large screens, but not the super thin and often uncomfortable to hold design). It's rare to find a smartphone that will last a day of moderate use, and if you tack an extra external amp/dac to that (especially a high powered one), you're not going to get far at all when it comes to battery life.
 
I'd love to see an amp/dac with a nice sized battery that can also be used to charge my smartphone as a backup battery. Of course, that may be too convenient for an audiophile company. 

 

[520RanchBro]

 
I'd love to see an amp/dac with a nice sized battery that can also be used to charge my smartphone as a backup battery. Of course, that may be too convenient for an audiophile company. 

The OPPO HA-2 has that exact feature. I don't think the battery is super big though.

 

[jexby]

The OPPO HA-2 has that exact feature. I don't think the battery is super big though.

The Geek Out V2+ has a battery but haven't compared its playback times to HA-2 or iFi iDSD micro yet.

 

[Taowolf51]

 
The OPPO HA-2 has that exact feature. I don't think the battery is super big though.

 
Mmmm, the HA-2 keeps popping up on my radar, I'll have to look into it a little more.
 
I have a feeling that it's time to get a nice portable setup.

 

[kustomdlux]

Portable amp or DAC/amp. Hmm. This is one I spent a lot of time on last year and ended up abandoning, mainly because I couldn’t answer Question #2 well enough—that is, how do we do it better or cheaper? This is something I could still get behind, though, if we figure out a way to make it unique enough. And we have some ideas…but those ideas point towards a relatively large device with very high power output and some unique takes on power supply and topology (discrete.) So we’ll keep playing. Which is where I’d ask…would you be interested in a larger-than-normal portable amp/DAC that provides truly stellar performance? I’d assume that iOS and Android connectivity (self-powered USB input) would be a must, but let me know what you think.

 
THIS! I've been looking at this market pretty in depth lately and I find that there are so many compromises. I keep finding myself wishing Schiit would apply the same mindset to this market that you have with the rest of the lineup.
 
The larger-than-normal size would not be a problem for me personally especially if you are only going to offer a higher powered unit. For the times I want to use a smaller unit I will probably be using headphones with a lower power demand anyway. I see 2 different portable rigs as a necessity for my needs so the larger size for a more powerful setup would not be a problem. That being said, I would like to see Schiit offer multiple levels of portable products as you do with the desktop items, but I can see how #2 would be even more difficult to answer the smaller the unit becomes.
 
Definitely iOS and Android compatibility would be needed and maybe a few balanced output options. Although my personal opinion is that if you want balanced and portable the rsa option is the only reasonable option simply due to it's ability to remain tight with the rig.  I'm excited to see what Schiit would do given how impressed I've been by what you have done in terms of form, function, and pricing in your other products.

 

[StanD]

  Interesting discussion! Be aware though- ALL amps sound the same to StanD and he has data to back up his claim!

You can visit the Sound Science forum and learn all about this. There are plenty of comparitive tests that have been done to support this. I say that all good amps that are properly designed and used within their operating parameters. For example I would not use 600 Ohm headphones with a SS amp that is not desigend to have the proper V_p-p to output enough power at 600 Ohms. On the flip side I would not use a tube OTL with low efficiency low impedance headphones, however, this type of amp would probably do well at 600 Ohms.

 

[520RanchBro]

The Geek Out V2+ has a battery but haven't compared its playback times to HA-2 or iFi iDSD micro yet.

Does the V2+ have a charging feature for phones too? I don't know but I did have the V2 on preorder but then the whole IGG thing came up and I don't want to give LH Labs my money. Hopefully the V2+ makes it to Massdrop but I think I'll have saved enough to buy an HA-2 by then.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

1.) i wouldn't have much interest in a portable of it's any larger than my phone.

With the current trend in phone sizing, this leaves a LOT of leeway.

I'd almost be surprised if Schiit doesn't do a speaker amp with Rag tech - preferably a monoblock with 120-150 watts. I've heard a lot of amps at a lot of price points and a lot of them sound a lot alike - you could almost pick one by lottery. But when I heard my speakers powered by Rag, it was a "whoa" moment. A lot of speakers-only audiophiles need to have that experience. Amps can be simple, though the market would appreciate a trigger system, especially for multi-channel installs.


 


Which brings up pre-amps. I think Schiit needs to abandon re-think its minimalist approach here - a pre-amp has to be all about flexibility, which means bell and whistles and lots of inputs/outputs and a remote control. (Lack of remote is the one thing I really dislike about Rag.) Or maybe you could do two pres - a hairshirt version with just volume and source select; and a full-boat unit with all mod cons. Including a balance control.


 


Oh, and a tubed Rag-equivalent would be welcomed by a lot of people.

 


What bells and whistles do you think a preamp needs? My ideal would be easy: 3 balanced inputs, 2 balanced outputs (for easy subwoofer integration), a gain switch and a remote volume/mute control. Easy to fit within the Rag-sized chassis given that you wouldn't need speaker outputs.

Things like assignable inputs and outputs really don't add that much value, but do add cost. How many people use tape loops or tone controls? I can't even remember the last time I touched a balance control.

And sticking to the more minimal requirement set does seem to be the Schiit way.

But the lack of a remote would make it an instant non-purchase for me.

 

[Yethal]

   
I don't think this is realistically possible without a very large time frame and an entire team of researchers and mathematicians... and even then you'd only get an approximation of binaural with a lot of mangling in between.

Surround algorithms are already available, Dolby Headphone, Creative's SBX, Yamaha Silent Cinema, maybe they'd up the cost a little bit by using a proprietary algorithm but their hardware quality would beat out currently available competition (Smyth Realizer)

 

[scottbrown5271]

That's basically what I meant to say. Audio circuits are small enough (relative to audio wavelengths) to ensure "as intended" operation. You would need a very large amp before the wave travel delays become a problem.
Yeah, there are plenty of other issues and design contraints that amplifiers can have. I was just picking out the speed of light thing because wave dynamics are basically irrelevant on this scale, and while it might sound like we're violating the laws of physics, we've really just eliminated the need to design around and account for wave travel times.

 
Well said.  All that feedback stuff was just a rant I had to get out, and thank you for putting it into perspective.  I'm too stuck in my ways of thinking because of digital design, and, boy, you really can't ignore wave dynamics in a multi-gigahertz environment.  I'll shut up already.

 

[vocalstrance]

+1 To the tube pre-amp using Ragnarok topology with both balanced and SE input output.
 
The one thing I'm having a problem with my systems is finding a crossover to control my speakers in conjunction with a subwoofer and my headphone amps.
Seperate components or integrated.

 

[judmarc]

Hunter S. Thompson used to sign off on letters with "I am not like the others."  Me either, so if you want to sell a bunch of stuff, don't listen to me.
 
OK, if you're still reading...
   

And we have a pretty neat technology portfolio that includes:
 

1. Extensible relay-switched stepped attenuation that has glitch muting and very robust code.

 
Funny, I just emailed your customer support (and got, as I always do, a thorough, helpful, prompt, friendly answer - wanna be a billionaire, export your customer service to the Fortune 500) about the SYS, because the little preamp I've got in my desktop system completely cuts out one of the channels until I've got the volume at about 8-9 o'clock.  I asked about the SYS and was told that while low-level channel linearity is kind of a bugaboo for inexpensive attenuators, the SYS ought to do better than what I've got.  (I'll be ordering one for my birthday next month - if you select one for testing that does especially well with low-level linearity, ship me that one, OK? .)  So you wanna figure out how to do stuff cheaper and better?  OK, volume control/passive preamp that solves the low-level channel linearity problem at reasonable cost.  'Cause why the heck should it be difficult to play your music softly over speakers?
 
 

3. Are we excited about working on it?
 
Because, believe it or not, #3 is more and more the arbiter of what we do.
 

 
That's as it should be.  Should I be excited about buying something you're not excited about building?  (That sounds way more confrontational than I intend.  I'm just saying enthusiasm is somehow contagious, as is a lack of excitement.  Kind of the old Apple vs. Microsoft thing, and God no, I do *not* mean to spark a flamewar about *that*.)
 

would you be interested in a larger-than-normal portable amp/DAC

 

 
Nope.
 

Combined desktop DAC/amp.

 
Would be a great idea if it was innovative, but the bar here is *really* high, with lots of DIY buzz around Hypex, NAD in the middle ground, and Devialet for folks who love cool looking design and can afford the Apple Watch Edition.  I know those are Class D and you said you wouldn't do that.  Very curious to learn the technical reasons not to do Class D (besides the fact that Class D to my inexpert layperson's mind might be something like sigma-delta on steroids and would likely make Mike break out in Rottweiler hives).
 

Mike already said that customers who’ve purchased our upgradable DACs will be rewarded with technology from Yggdrasil at some point in the future.

 
DAC kits for DIYers with available Yggy modules?
 

Preamps. Okay, now we’re talking. I can see opportunities for remote-controlled, relay-switched stepped attenuator preamps—passive, active, tube, etc. There’s a shortage of good affordable products at this price point, and I think we can really make some cool stuff here. But do they fly without amps? Is the remote a BLE module and smartphone app, or old-skool proprietary RF?

 
Yes.  Yes yes yes.  Smartphone app.  Think someone like me with (shortly) a buncha eero routers making a home Bluetooth and wi-fi mesh network.  https://www.eero.com/
 

1. 1. Music server. Argh. Yeah, I know, some of you want a non-computer-style server that still takes USB drives and SD cards and Wifi audio and stuff. But do you know what you call that? A computer. No matter how you slice it, a modern music server is a computer. It may have a lot of computer-y stuff hidden, but it’s still either an embedded Linux or Windows box. This means software development, support, maintenance releases, software/firmware upgrades, etc. That’s a big undertaking to do it right. We’re currently glancing in the direction of these things, but that’s about it. Would it be better to simply do a super-uber-mega-USB-reformatter that “perfects” the USB packets and timing (which vary significantly from platform to platform, and even computer to computer) that could be used with any computer?
   2. Wireless audio. Bluetooth, nope. Not until it’s capable of uncompressed streaming. WiFi, hmm…but we’d need RFID to allow easy pairing…lots of questions here. Let’s just say we’re playing at the moment. But is it really so hard running some cables?

 
Howzabout something like this: No separate server box.  But a network box for the output of your - DAC? Preamp? - and on the other end, a portable bluetooth/wifi/whatever receiver box/amp into which you'd plug your headphones.  So no matter where you were in the house, you could enjoy the quality of your main rig through headphones.  Heck, make the network box web-capable, Slingbox style, and enjoy your home rig on the road.  Yeah, this is getting into the same territory as a DAP, so who knows, maybe not the web-capable part.
 
And/or: the network receiver box plugs into your DAC, either directly or with an adapter, receives files from your network storage/external HDD, no USB cables required.
 
Yeah, all this would be tremendously home network dependent in terms of not having dropouts, so maybe not.
 
(By the way, I do love the ADC idea, but where would the market be?)
 
The thing about my system I dislike?  That is damned difficult, because I am completely loving my main system these days.  I mean, Spectral, right?  I've gotta say I don't love the *idea* of how subject the sound is to the vagaries of things like USB cables, even though I like my current cable.  Not a chance in heck you'd do this, but a better USB cable with something like Mike's old Laser Linque in the middle of it?  (Corning has done something like this with USB cables, but it actually has 28awg copper wires connecting source to DAC, so no isolation.)

 

[US Blues]

 
I'd almost be surprised if Schiit doesn't do a speaker amp with Rag tech - preferably a monoblock with 120-150 watts. I've heard a lot of amps at a lot of price points and a lot of them sound a lot alike - you could almost pick one by lottery. But when I heard my speakers powered by Rag, it was a "whoa" moment. A lot of speakers-only audiophiles need to have that experience. Amps can be simple, though the market would appreciate a trigger system, especially for multi-channel installs.
 
 

 
Thank you for this. I have a Ragnarok on order to match my Yggy, it will power a set of stand mounted monitors with the subs tapped out of the SE preamp output. Now I am even more excited to receive my Ragnarok, and look forward eagerly to the "whoa" moment.