[Jason Stoddard]

I feel Jason was taking shots at a certain other community on a different site that tends to walk all over Schiit products heh.

I'm sorta still chewing on the question of why you felt the need to write this chapter.
It sorta reflects some nasty-nes. Reads like fun though.

Actually, I'm not taking potshots at anyone. I think both the objectivist and subjectivist viewpoints have a lot to offer, I just think we can do it without the yelling at either extreme.

Some extreme subjectivists love to talk about world-changing, mind-bending experiences from literally every change--amps, cables, stickers, etc. That's patently crazy.

Some extreme objectivists like to claim that nobody can hear a difference beyond a certain level, which is also absurd. They are not everyone. They don't know everyone's capabilities.

I'm saying that we should do some more blind testing to bring all the sane people in both camps closer together, rather than tear them apart. Or create a middle ground where we can find out how many people can hear these small differences, and where measurements offer the most insight.

Bottom line: like I've been saying from the start, get a great transducer you like, then move on to everything else. Transducers have gross differences. Electronics are much more subtle (and many people may not hear a difference).

Repeat: Really. Tiny. Differences.

Re-read Tyll's Big Sound, and you'll see he came to the same conclusion I did.

I don't know about that - craftsmanship does matter. Not for sound, but for the experience. For example, the Asgard 3 volume knob is so much better to use than the Vali 2 or Magni...does it matter to sound? Probably not much, but it definitely enhances the experience of using the amp. And I think this hobby is more than just sound, but the overall experience.

The Asgard 3 pot is simply a better product. Measurements-wise, it will perform better at channel matching than the smaller pot used in Magni, and the taper, while specified the same as "10A", is much more ideal as an audio taper. However, the Asgard 3 pot is too expensive to use in Magni (and too large). Additional budget can bring actual usability enhancements, such as better pots (or relay ladders), more power, better warranty, etc...but as I said in one of the previously referenced chapters, I've seen faceplates that would sell for the cost of an entire Yggdrasil if sold separately. That's just a pretty piece of aluminum. And that (to me) is crazy.

Hmm so probably the Ether 2, I am familiar with the other 2 but not the Ether line. I will check them out.

Yep, Ether 2 worked. In additional testing, Elex and HD800S are pretty resolving as well; it does not need to be Ether, but all have significant tonal differences, so best to try before getting an expensive set of headphones. (But definitely get the headphones first, before worrying about amps/DACs/cables/fuses/stickers/Schumann resonance tuners/etc.)

 

[Alexnova]

I'm saying that we should do some more blind testing to bring all the sane people in both camps closer together, rather than tear them apart. Or create a middle ground where we can find out how many people can hear these small differences, and where measurements offer the most insight.

Do you have both extreme sides doing blind listening at the Schiitr?

Would be fun to make a custom amp that was heavily distorted and have the extreme objectivist prefer it over everything else. And also vice versa for the subjectivist.

These listening tests are a lot of fun to read. Can't wait to see how the Yggdrasil vs. Modi does.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Do you have both extreme sides doing blind listening at the Schiitr?

We have whoever shows up. No clue really, we don't pass out questionnaires.

 

[johnjen]

A ways back I wrote in the cookbook thread that in my opinion it takes BOTH the subjective and objective approaches in tandem to determine what is 'better' for the individual.
It's ALWAYS a matter of choice of the specific characteristics that make up an individuals choices, which in turn determines what is 'best' for them.

So ultimately it's a personal (subjective) choice based upon the criteria they deem important to them.

And some can hear more subtle differences than others can.
This was brought out in a 2012 RMAF presentation by the ESS (sabre dac chips) product manager when he stated that he couldn't hear what the one guy in his group who could hear of the differences, based on the different s/w solutions to recreating the analog waveforms.

And also what is 'better' is usually also heavily influenced by ones personal 'standard' of what is 'better' based upon what one has experienced to 'know' what is 'better'.
IOW the best we have ever heard becomes the 'standard' by which we can compare any playback system to our 'known ideal'.
I call this 'process' "getting calibrated" and I use it as a comparator to see just how high the SQ 'bar' has been raised and in what ways.

Of course this process is also dependent upon being able to describe these small yet meaningful differences such that they are repeatable and thus they become useful as an audio 'tool'.

And another often overlooked factor is motivation, as in why do we seek 'better', or not.
And we who are in this hobby are usually sufficiently motivated to want to experience 'better' to some degree, while those not in this hobby or those just starting out will have rather different motivations.

And ALL of this (and more) will 'color' our perceptions and thus our choices, regardless of our professed druthers…

JJ

 

[Alexnova]

Jason, I'm curious about how these will affect how you go about designing future products. Do these listening tests for you have more weight in influencing design decisions or they simply a useful data point while you still continue working on something? Like if you come up with a different topology unique to a Schiit product, does say 30% of blind feedback influence the final product or does that become like 60% or greater?

I guess what I'm asking is how much stock do you put in the results vs. your own opinions on how something is designed.

I gotta imagine you and the other guys at Schiit have some strong opinions on how something should be done, and if the feedback is contrary to your expectations/opinions, how much of that is ignored.

 

[Roy G. Biv]

2020, Chapter 3:
Lighted by the Blind

For me, this is one of the most interesting and enlightening posts of this very long thread.
Well done Jason, and thanks for taking the time to write it.

 

[muffins]

Truth be told, at least in my small opinion, you've hit the nail on the head as squarely as I think can be managed. Humans are emotional creatures by nature, not objective measuring machines; so it makes sense that the waters get muddy when peoples hobbies and wallets are on the line. And as a small anecdote, this coincides with my own experience, and as it happens, with Schiit products.

I went from using only a Magni 2U hooked up to my pc to using a Gungnir Multibit into a Mjolnir 2 - all running balanced. And if I had to say the differences were life changing... I'd be a liar. In fact, when I swapped between them initially I was a bit scared by the real lack of difference. Which isnt to say there are none, but I was shocked by the subtlety. And I really doubt I could tell between them blind, much less not knowing what was what! So keep it up guys, you're on the right track ^_^

 

[ev666il]

[...]

And ALL of this (and more) will 'color' our perceptions and thus our choices, regardless of our professed druthers…

I wish I could Like this post multiple times.

 

[GearMe]

It's a "night and day" difference

WITH...the right cables!

 

[dieslemat]

like Gadgets and Super-Lokis

Super Loki! I super like it!

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

2020, Chapter 3:
Lighted by the Blind

Wouldn’t it be great if customers could opt for blind listening as part of their decision to purchase electronic equipment to go with their transducers? I realize it would probably be impractical, from a staffing perspective. But I wonder what fun combinations customers might pick out ("I'll go with combination number 4 of test 36, please." "Great, that'll be an Yggy paired with a Magni Heresy, thank you for your purchase.")

Also, Schiit Audio really ought to open other Schiitrs to facilitate data collection - purely in the interest of scientific advancement, of course (might I suggest one near where I live?).

(And, for a split second there, when you mentioned “double blind,” I thought you meant the tubes didn’t know who you were).

 

[Odin412]

Thanks for a great and thought-provoking chapter! Blind listening (as opposed to blind testing) is a very interesting approach. On the topic of subjectivism, at last year's THE Show there were two room with the same speakers and electronics, but one room had lots of tweaks and the other didn't. I thought the room without the tweaks sounded better.

The subject of measurements vs audible differences is an interesting one. My opinion is that if people can reliably hear differences between products that have similar measurements then we're not measuring the right things. I have a really hard time believing that something as complex as the human auditory system can be explained by a couple of simple graphs.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Jason, I'm curious about how these will affect how you go about designing future products. Do these listening tests for you have more weight in influencing design decisions or they simply a useful data point while you still continue working on something? Like if you come up with a different topology unique to a Schiit product, does say 30% of blind feedback influence the final product or does that become like 60% or greater?

I guess what I'm asking is how much stock do you put in the results vs. your own opinions on how something is designed.

I gotta imagine you and the other guys at Schiit have some strong opinions on how something should be done, and if the feedback is contrary to your expectations/opinions, how much of that is ignored.

Lots of strong opinions here, like you said. Blind listening is just one part of it, and you can't really quantify how much. However, it will definitely be weighed when developing new products, and, in the case of affordable products, it could potentially decide the direction. We did that recently with something that was coming up--we had two different implementations, and went through sighted listening, blind listening internally, blind listening at the Schiitr...and in the end, we chose to go the direction that most listeners liked best.

Wouldn’t it be great if customers could opt for blind listening as part of their decision to purchase electronic equipment to go with their transducers? I realize it would probably be impractical, from a staffing perspective. But I wonder what fun combinations customers might pick out ("I'll go with combination number 4 of test 36, please." "Great, that'll be an Yggy paired with a Magni Heresy, thank you for your purchase.")

Also, Schiit Audio really ought to open other Schiitrs to facilitate data collection - purely in the interest of scientific advancement, of course (might I suggest one near where I live?).

Want to give us a ton of money to open more Schiitrs? Opening, staffing, and maintaining a retail location is super pricey.

But I expect we'll be doing more blind listening at the Schiitr. Tyler wants me to make our own box, so we can dispense with the rats nest we have now, but we'll see. What we have works, and I have tons of other things to do.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

I have a really hard time believing that something as complex as the human auditory system can be explained by a couple of simple graphs.

That's a very real truth.
If it where even possible to correlate the measurements with sound quality as perceived by a human.......
Brrrrr.. I can only freak out by the sheer number of data points we have to measure in the first place. That would be thousands.
It's just impossible. We do not have the computing power to digest the amount of data it would generate.

So, to be clear, I agree with Jason that the only thing you CAN do is take the few measurements we can have, compare them to what people (think to) hear, have fun and try to learn something. Blind listening can be a good way to do that. What to do about al the smells people bring to the event? One can only hope those are not aggressive and/or blinding.

 

[RickB]

If reality is actually a simulation, then everything is subjective and there is no objective reality...