[wink]

Get the YGGY........ ....

 

[RCBinTN]

The whole Single Bit/Multi Bit thing has me dazed and confused. Is there an audible difference between the two? One that a normal person can easily discern? If designed properly, should not equipment simply pass the signal as best as possible, i.e., as recorded? This is why I am more about looks, which are subjective than about the subjective sound of equipment. I can not fathom what "warm sound" is but I can see and appreciate the soft glow of a tube and my older brother is some what the same with regard to looks and sound. I suppose that with analog there might be a touch of truth at certain price points but as the cost of entry rises and the equipment is really as good as it can ever get, it becomes nothing more than a wiener-wallet-weigh-in. Or some thing. "Oh, Good Grief" by the Vince Guaraldi Trio is on because I like Real Jazz and I am a total nut for the style of music from the Charlie Brown TV Specials. Selections from "Chet Baker Sings" are on deck.

So then, this week is plan to buy some Schiit for my big brother week. It doth appear that he will wind up with either a Vali 2 or a Magni 3 but no DAC as I have no clue about the Bit thing. Bits is bits to me and the two versions of Modi pretty much look the same although the Modi he will wind up with down the road must have a toslink input for his CDs so it would have to be Uber or the Multibit version. I think.

I know...I don't know Schiit. But that is why I am here axing all of you. "Look For The Silver Lining" - Chet Baker.


Oh yeah. I like kittehs. And pooches.

ORT

PM sent, Toad.

 

[garbulky]

The whole Single Bit/Multi Bit thing has me dazed and confused. Is there an audible difference between the two?

I was very excited for multibit. It had been ages since a real affordable revolution in DAC technology came along and it's finally here with us going back to multibit and an improved filter.
What I was hoping to hear was an "analog" sound but also something incredibly clear in resolution laying bare all the fine details.

I tried the Gungnir multibit and well let's get the one con out the way, no it didn't win awards for laying bare the finest details - especially in the treble. The Emotiva DC-1 simply did better with that producing (to my surprise) better reproduction of room dimensions in the recording aka space and air and finer details in the treble. I only had it warmed up for a week and the treble tone also felt just slightly on the harsh side. Perhaps this would change but I didn't have it much longer.

We had a sighted level matched (within 0.5 db) and non level matched sighted comparison with my friend and we used the DC-1, the Emotiva PT-100 ($300), and the Gungnir MB. He felt there was nearly no difference of significance between all three. He said the Gungnir had more bass impact. I disagreed on the no significant differences bit , and felt the differences come out more clearly over time but it was true that comparing them directly it was hard to say if there was an appreciable difference instantly - and this was in a sighted test both level matched and non level matched.Though I did feel the PT-100 was a bit behind both the DC-1 and the Gungnir.

So that surprised me. But all was definitely not lost. Level matched tests aside, in real life listening, this was still right at the level of the best DAC I'd heard just in a different way. And, my listening takes place over my life, not at a one time event.
The best way I can describe it is I was listening to vinyl the other day. And I realized that to me, the timing simply seemed more realistic. Everything just gelled together and flowed "better."
Now before you roll your eyes, I have never been one for PRAT or any such nonsense including saying things like the timing was better. But with vinyl it felt like everything happened then and there while with digital there was a bit of vagueness sometimes. This is weird because the timing is DEFINITELY worse with vinyl because of the way vinyl works. Digital is quite a lot more precise. But vinyl does not have a digital filter to go through when reproducing the analog wave form on the disc in to an electric wave form from the stylus.

So whatever the reasoning, the timing and realism just felt right with vinyl. So that's something similar to what the Gungnir was able to do. It didn't jump out at me but over time, there was a realism that felt like that of a high quality tape if you will. Everything appears at once. There's no hesitation for want of a better word. It's instantly there and when the sound stops, it's instantly not there. For instance I was watching voices of music playing pachelbel's canon. On the DC-1 I heard better reproduction of the hall. But on the Gungnir, the instruments popped out - especially regarding expression. For instance, the vibrato on the violin (or viola) became especially obvious to me. I'd heard this song about a hundred times I imagine and it never occured to me that that specific violinist was using vibrato in a very nice manner. And it wasn't just some violin doing vibrato, it was that specific violin.

So did I imagine it? I went back and listened with the DC-1 and sure enough I heard the vibrato with the DC-1. But it wasn't as "realistic" in feeling. There was something easily identifiable about the violin in the gungnir. The soundstage was more stable if you will and I was able to hear expressions a bit better. This effect was repeated throughout several songs. I imagine that the Ygdrassil will hopefully give me the detail and resolution I crave but with the ease of reproduction of the Gungnir.

Having said that, the lack of remote for changing inputs drove me and my family nuts as we use multiple inputs all the time and we were relieved when it was gone. At 3 times the price of my old dac, no remote, and a slight decrease over the resolution I was used to, I couldn't justify it. But one thing a really good component does is it keeps me missing it after it's gone. And this one did. And I still do miss it. But that's a personal thing for my specific living room use. If and when Schiit finally decides that including a remote is not a crazy idea, the temptation of the Ygdrassil is going to be quite large for me mainly because of that realism and timing I felt.

 

[cmabooty]

Serious question:

What pen is in the Magni/Modi pic leaning on both of them?

 

[Alcophone]

The best way I can describe it is I was listening to vinyl the other day. And I realized that to me, the timing simply seemed more realistic. Everything just gelled together and flowed "better."
Now before you roll your eyes, I have never been one for PRAT or any such nonsense including saying things like the timing was better. But with vinyl it felt like everything happened then and there while with digital there was a bit of vagueness sometimes.

I'd be interested to know whether you experience that with all vinyl, or just with analog recordings, etc.
I was blown away by the sound of an electrostatic speaker system at the California Audio Show last year. Nils Lofgren's Keith Don't Go was played (a song I had never heard before) from vinyl. I have the CD now, and haven't even gotten close to the holographic presentation I heard at CAS. I call it holographic because with eyes closed, I truly wouldn't have been able to say that Nils Lofgren and his guitar were being played back from a recording, the imaging was that life like.

But here's the kicker: that album was recorded digitally in 16/44.1. So I do have the most accurate representation of it. Of course, the system shown had cables that cost more than all my systems combined, so it'll take some upgrading and experimentation to recreate this experience. But it's an interesting benchmark.

 

[Snowpuppy77]

I was very excited for multibit. It had been ages since a real affordable revolution in DAC technology came along and it's finally here with us going back to multibit and an improved filter.
What I was hoping to hear was an "analog" sound but also something incredibly clear in resolution laying bare all the fine details.

I tried the Gungnir multibit and well let's get the one con out the way, no it didn't win awards for laying bare the finest details - especially in the treble. The Emotiva DC-1 simply did better with that producing (to my surprise) better reproduction of room dimensions in the recording aka space and air and finer details in the treble. I only had it warmed up for a week and the treble tone also felt just slightly on the harsh side. Perhaps this would change but I didn't have it much longer.

We had a sighted level matched (within 0.5 db) and non level matched sighted comparison with my friend and we used the DC-1, the Emotiva PT-100 ($300), and the Gungnir MB. He felt there was nearly no difference of significance between all three. He said the Gungnir had more bass impact. I disagreed on the no significant differences bit , and felt the differences come out more clearly over time but it was true that comparing them directly it was hard to say if there was an appreciable difference instantly - and this was in a sighted test both level matched and non level matched.Though I did feel the PT-100 was a bit behind both the DC-1 and the Gungnir.

So that surprised me. But all was definitely not lost. Level matched tests aside, in real life listening, this was still right at the level of the best DAC I'd heard just in a different way. And, my listening takes place over my life, not at a one time event.
The best way I can describe it is I was listening to vinyl the other day. And I realized that to me, the timing simply seemed more realistic. Everything just gelled together and flowed "better."
Now before you roll your eyes, I have never been one for PRAT or any such nonsense including saying things like the timing was better. But with vinyl it felt like everything happened then and there while with digital there was a bit of vagueness sometimes. This is weird because the timing is DEFINITELY worse with vinyl because of the way vinyl works. Digital is quite a lot more precise. But vinyl does not have a digital filter to go through when reproducing the analog wave form on the disc in to an electric wave form from the stylus.

So whatever the reasoning, the timing and realism just felt right with vinyl. So that's something similar to what the Gungnir was able to do. It didn't jump out at me but over time, there was a realism that felt like that of a high quality tape if you will. Everything appears at once. There's no hesitation for want of a better word. It's instantly there and when the sound stops, it's instantly not there. For instance I was watching voices of music playing pachelbel's canon. On the DC-1 I heard better reproduction of the hall. But on the Gungnir, the instruments popped out - especially regarding expression. For instance, the vibrato on the violin (or viola) became especially obvious to me. I'd heard this song about a hundred times I imagine and it never occured to me that that specific violinist was using vibrato in a very nice manner. And it wasn't just some violin doing vibrato, it was that specific violin.

So did I imagine it? I went back and listened with the DC-1 and sure enough I heard the vibrato with the DC-1. But it wasn't as "realistic" in feeling. There was something easily identifiable about the violin in the gungnir. The soundstage was more stable if you will and I was able to hear expressions a bit better. This effect was repeated throughout several songs. I imagine that the Ygdrassil will hopefully give me the detail and resolution I crave but with the ease of reproduction of the Gungnir.

Having said that, the lack of remote for changing inputs drove me and my family nuts as we use multiple inputs all the time and we were relieved when it was gone. At 3 times the price of my old dac, no remote, and a slight decrease over the resolution I was used to, I couldn't justify it. But one thing a really good component does is it keeps me missing it after it's gone. And this one did. And I still do miss it. But that's a personal thing for my specific living room use. If and when Schiit finally decides that including a remote is not a crazy idea, the temptation of the Ygdrassil is going to be quite large for me mainly because of that realism and timing I felt.

When I upgraded from the Bifrost Uber to the Bimby I noticed that the Uber also seemed to have more treble detail or sense of space. However over time I understood it to be more of a false detail with the delta sigma Uber Dac. I can actually recognize a much more of the soundstage with the Bimby and better detail. I have since discovered others who mention the pre and post ringing effect of delta sigma Dacs creates a false sense of air and space. This ringing also creates fatigue to my ears. Not sure what you mean by timing but time domain accuracy issues have been a plague on digital since the beginning. MQA is supposed to fix that and vinyl has never had the issue.

 

[garbulky]

When I upgraded from the Bifrost Uber to the Bimby I noticed that the Uber also seemed to have more treble detail or sense of space. However over time I understood it to be more of a false detail with the delta sigma Uber Dac. I can actually recognize a much more of the soundstage with the Bimby and better detail. I have since discovered others who mention the pre and post ringing effect of delta sigma Dacs creates a false sense of air and space. This ringing also creates fatigue to my ears. Not sure what you mean by timing but time domain accuracy issues have been a plague on digital since the beginning. MQA is supposed to fix that and vinyl has never had the issue.

It's hard for me to actually articulate what I mean by timing. Because I don't really know what I mean. It just flowed more "correctly" to my perception.
I wondered that about false detail too. But the level of the reporduction was such that, I didn't think there was much of that though I could be wrong. However I did notice a very subtle haze on the DC-1 which was not there on the Gumby. From what I gather Schiit's multibit dacs also have pre and post ringing but the filter has a marginally improved timing aspect to it. I think a lot of the sound has to do with the multibit processing.

I'd be interested to know whether you experience that with all vinyl, or just with analog recordings, etc.
I was blown away by the sound of an electrostatic speaker system at the California Audio Show last year. Nils Lofgren's Keith Don't Go was played (a song I had never heard before) from vinyl. I have the CD now, and haven't even gotten close to the holographic presentation I heard at CAS. I call it holographic because with eyes closed, I truly wouldn't have been able to say that Nils Lofgren and his guitar were being played back from a recording, the imaging was that life like.

But here's the kicker: that album was recorded digitally in 16/44.1. So I do have the most accurate representation of it. Of course, the system shown had cables that cost more than all my systems combined, so it'll take some upgrading and experimentation to recreate this experience. But it's an interesting benchmark.

Unfortunately I don't have much experience with vinyl. The little I have had has impressed me. Interestingly some of that which still expressed the "improvement" was with DIGITAL MASTERS.
I think we confuse analog to digital and digital to analog as seemingly being the same thing. But they are not. They require different equipment and a different process. So that may explain the difference.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

Let me be the one to do some pointless policing this time.
Digital Schiit should be on Mike's thread.

 

[Snowpuppy77]

It's hard for me to actually articulate what I mean by timing. Because I don't really know what I mean. It just flowed more "correctly" to my perception.
I wondered that about false detail too. But the level of the reporduction was such that, I didn't think there was much of that though I could be wrong. However I did notice a very subtle haze on the DC-1 which was not there on the Gumby. From what I gather Schiit's multibit dacs also have pre and post ringing but the filter has a marginally improved timing aspect to it. I think a lot of the sound has to do with the multibit processing.


Unfortunately I don't have much experience with vinyl. The little I have had has impressed me. Interestingly some of that which still expressed the "improvement" was with DIGITAL MASTERS.
I think we confuse analog to digital and digital to analog as seemingly being the same thing. But they are not. They require different equipment and a different process. So that may explain the difference.

I think I know what you mean about timing. I often call it momentum and some call it PRAT (pace rhythm accuracy timing). Most of the time my vinyl rig does this better than my Bimby, my Dads Bryston, and my older Musicial Fidelity A324. To me vinyl has a momentum and liveliness to the music that digital struggles with. I even find this with vinyl pressed from digital masters though to a lesser degree. I do not understand why. Of coarse what's important is what works for each of us the best in our application. What I have struggled with over the years is how certain components perform over the long haul after a flashy first impression. It can really take a while to discover what a component really does. One thing I really like about my Ragnarok is the neutrality with musicality I am getting with my cans (HD800S) and speakers. I have a set tube headphone amp that has some amazing qualities but over time the coloration's of thick bass and over smoothness become less satisfying especially when you compare to an amp like the Ragnarok. With the Ragnarok I think less about how my equipment is sounding and more about how the recording sounds. I trust my Ragnarok is getting it right and just enjoy the recording for what it is. Nice to stop analyzing and just play and enjoy the music.

 

[crazychile]

I learned a long time ago that differences in DACs cant be appreciated by rapid switching back and forth like some might compare speakers. The mind usually gravitates to obvious ranges that pop out immediately, and that usually isn't the case. If there are immediate differences it is usually the sparkling treble found on a lot of Delta/Sigma implementations. One might be tempted in these cases to favor this, but then realize after purchase that it simply isn't natural sounding.

 

[FLTWS]

I think I know what you mean about timing. I often call it momentum and some call it PRAT (pace rhythm accuracy timing). Most of the time my vinyl rig does this better than my Bimby, my Dads Bryston, and my older Musicial Fidelity A324. To me vinyl has a momentum and liveliness to the music that digital struggles with. I even find this with vinyl pressed from digital masters though to a lesser degree. I do not understand why. Of coarse what's important is what works for each of us the best in our application. What I have struggled with over the years is how certain components perform over the long haul after a flashy first impression. It can really take a while to discover what a component really does. One thing I really like about my Ragnarok is the neutrality with musicality I am getting with my cans (HD800S) and speakers. I have a set tube headphone amp that has some amazing qualities but over time the coloration's of thick bass and over smoothness become less satisfying especially when you compare to an amp like the Ragnarok. With the Ragnarok I think less about how my equipment is sounding and more about how the recording sounds. I trust my Ragnarok is getting it right and just enjoy the recording for what it is. Nice to stop analyzing and just play and enjoy the music.

The Ragnarok is the best SS state HP amp I've experienced yet, I don't see it ever being replaced (maybe updated by Schiit). But variety is the spice of listening and I still need tubes as well, it's in my DNA. And depending on the tube type / brand I install I can get some excellent bass and highs with my MJ2 or RH5 and at times it gets difficult to tell the difference between the 3. But that's what 2018 will be all about for me, my gear is set, I foresee no changes in any electronics or phones this year or next, just listening and comparing.

 

[Gimpinchair]

It's now EASIER to buy weed in Kommiefornia than ammunition...

Sound right!

 

[Snowpuppy77]

The Ragnarok is the best SS state HP amp I've experienced yet, I don't see it ever being replaced (maybe updated by Schiit). But variety is the spice of listening and I still need tubes as well, it's in my DNA. And depending on the tube type / brand I install I can get some excellent bass and highs with my MJ2 or RH5 and at times it gets difficult to tell the difference between the 3. But that's what 2018 will be all about for me, my gear is set, I foresee no changes in any electronics or phones this year or next, just listening and comparing.

I confess that I like tubes as well and will keep and still listen to my tube amp as a change of pace. Would like to get a better tube amp eventually as a better partner to the Ragnarok. Kind of like vinyl has some tricks that digital does not usually do as well, tubes are the same way vs SS. For example the upper registers of my tube amp are sweet and very transparent. Makes SS amps I have heard sound dry. Ragnarok less so. If Schiit came out with a tube amp at the level of Ragnarok I would be very interested. I really want to have both a great tube and SS set up and switch between the two. But if I could only have one it would be Ragnarok. Next priority however is to give my Ragnarok a Yggy.

 

[FLTWS]

I confess that I like tubes as well and will keep and still listen to my tube amp as a change of pace. Would like to get a better tube amp eventually as a better partner to the Ragnarok. Kind of like vinyl has some tricks that digital does not usually do as well, tubes are the same way vs SS. For example the upper registers of my tube amp are sweet and very transparent. Makes SS amps I have heard sound dry. Ragnarok less so. If Schiit came out with a tube amp at the level of Ragnarok I would be very interested. I really want to have both a great tube and SS set up and switch between the two. But if I could only have one it would be Ragnarok. Next priority however is to give my Ragnarok a Yggy.

Yep, just get the Yggy and there's no need to look back, cause nothing's gaining on you.

 

[US Blues]

Yep, just get the Yggy and there's no need to look back, cause nothing's gaining on you.

+1

Get an Yggy and you may discover that your system is complete.