[earnmyturns]

   
Good observation! Streamers is a product category that I really don't understand. It's basically a computer but more expensive and without the flexibility. I don't see how a streamer can do anything my cheap laptop can't do with the right software.

More expensive? There are several decent ~$100 options, basically ARM-based teeny computers (RaspPi, Odroid, CuBox) with prebuilt Linux/MPD open source software, such as Volumio. They have the big advantage that they do just one thing, their hardware and software is trimmed to the minimum necessary, so many of the complaints one reads on these forums about PC and Mac problems don't apply to them. Only disadvantage is that they require a modicum of computer/networking savvy to set up. If you want to avoid all of that, Sonicorbiter SE (~$300), SOtM sMS-200 (~$500) or microRendu (~$600) are totally plug-and-play if your home network does not suck. All of these can be made a tad better (tad better as in sometimes audible with careful listening on a good Yggy-based system) with decent linear power supplies in the $200-$400 price range. But even the basic $100 option with a wall wart is a great way to get music from your file server (Mac, PC, NUC, NAS, locally mounted USB drive) to your Schiit DAC without the crazy hassles of keeping your PC or Mac from mangling your USB audio out.

 

[earnmyturns]

 
Even at the San Francisco Symphony, sitting behind the brass can get legitimately painful. 

Thanks, never sat back there, now I know why I should not. My better half hates too-loud-sound, and my mountaineering pneumonia induced left ear tinnitus is aggravated by it.

 

[earnmyturns]

  Sonore MicroRendu or a Sotm SMS-200 may be good solutions but how can you escape the USB interface? It would be great if Schiit will allow access to an I2C interface on their DACs.

Have you actually listened to either feeding a Schiit multibit DAC? I have microRendus with UpTone LPS-1 power supplies feeding my Yggy (speaker system) and Bimby (headphone system). I could not hear any difference between direct USB to DAC and interposing a XMOS-based USB>S/PDIF coax converter/reclocker with "galvanic" (yes, shoot me) isolation (Bel Canto mLink). I have a Singxer SU-1 intended for another DAC on the way, and I'll try it with AES/EBU to my Yggy just because I'm curious. Whatever difference it will make, I expect it to be small.
 
My theory for all this USB audio angst is that generic (and even "audiophile") PCs and Macs put all sorts of electrical crap on the USB wire for the simple reason that generic PCs and Macs are doing a lot of computing work all the time that involves power supplies, processors, and memory and generates a ton of switching high frequencies that find their way to the DAC via the USB connection. If you start with a much less busy source (like a microRendu), a lot of that busy-ness will be avoided.

 

[earnmyturns]

 
Again, in the absence of measurements, claims of "cleaner" or "better formed" are speculative. If you've measured the difference, yourself, and have data to back it up, that's great. If you think it sounds better, that's great as well—but it is, of course, only an opinion. Others will argue that if the data is recovered, there is no difference. I'm in the middle—I'll refer you to the Measurements chapter for more detail.

I know enough about digital (I'm a multi-decade CS researcher/software engineer) and EE (from college) to be dangerous, so please bear with me. I don't think the issue with USB into your best DACs is digital signal integrity (jitter and all that hyperventilating), but rather all the electrical noise carried by the USB cable from the computer source to your DAC and interfering with what the DAC puts out. General-purpose computer power supplies and memories are electrical noise generators that are are highly dependent on computing load. That's why spooks can read what you are doing on your PC from a distance unless you sit in a Faraday cage. Computers that do very little are less noisy.

 

[Ran Perry]

  Have you actually listened to either feeding a Schiit multibit DAC? I have microRendus with UpTone LPS-1 power supplies feeding my Yggy (speaker system) and Bimby (headphone system). I could not hear any difference between direct USB to DAC and interposing a XMOS-based USB>S/PDIF coax converter/reclocker with "galvanic" (yes, shoot me) isolation (Bel Canto mLink). I have a Singxer SU-1 intended for another DAC on the way, and I'll try it with AES/EBU to my Yggy just because I'm curious. Whatever difference it will make, I expect it to be small.
 
My theory for all this USB audio angst is that generic (and even "audiophile") PCs and Macs put all sorts of electrical crap on the USB wire for the simple reason that generic PCs and Macs are doing a lot of computing work all the time that involves power supplies, processors, and memory and generates a ton of switching high frequencies that find their way to the DAC via the USB connection. If you start with a much less busy source (like a microRendu), a lot of that busy-ness will be avoided.

I have. I may be wrong, but based on my understanding neither Jason nor Mike are not big fans of USB Audio. Both believe that in their design, USB Audio falls short from AES (for example). I may be wrong but that is my impression. Also, if memory serves me right, in Jason's book, Mike says that USB Audio suck.

 

[earnmyturns]

  I have. I may be wrong, but based on my understanding neither Jason nor Mike are not big fans of USB Audio. Both believe that in their design, USB Audio falls short from AES (for example). I may be wrong but that is my impression. Also, if memory serves me right, in Jason's book, Mike says that USB Audio suck.

Yes, USB audio sucks because USB is an electrical nightmare, only intended to move bits between computers and peripheral devices that are noise insensitive, not to highly sensitive DACs. But whether that matters depends on how electrically noise the USB source is. Other things being equal, AES might be better, but other things are not typically equal when you change equipment.

 

[Ran Perry]

  Yes, USB audio sucks because USB is an electrical nightmare, only intended to move bits between computers and peripheral devices that are noise insensitive, not to highly sensitive DACs. But whether that matters depends on how electrically noise the USB source is. Other things being equal, AES might be better, but other things are not typically equal when you change equipment.

Agreed but from one perspective, Jason does not want to deal with any streaming options and from another, Mike says USB suck. If I want to stream to the Yggy, I am stuck with USB. Quite the conundrum.

 

[mike138]

There probably wouldn't be enough demand, but I'd love to see Schiit's take on an old-school stereo amplifier. Not a home theater receiver, a plain old receiver with good Schiit amplification inside, some inputs, maybe a built-in Mani to go with it, all with passive speaker output and a decent headphone out. 

 

[DigitalFrontEnd]

Agreed but from one perspective, Jason does not want to deal with any streaming options and from another, Mike says USB suck. If I want to stream to the Yggy, I am stuck with USB. Quite the conundrum.

..a conundrum that is something created in your own mind. If you understand why something like the Sonora microRendu was created
and look at some of the excellent USB isolation devices (I am loathe to use the term 'purifiers') you will know that USB certainly does not suck as
it stands today. And it does DSD.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

  There probably wouldn't be enough demand, but I'd love to see Schiit's take on an old-school stereo amplifier. Not a home theater receiver, a plain old receiver with good Schiit amplification inside, some inputs, maybe a built-in Mani to go with it, all with passive speaker output and a decent headphone out. 

You mean the Ragnarok?

 

[Ran Perry]

..a conundrum that is something created in your own mind. If you understand why something like the Sonora microRendu was created
and look at some of the excellent USB isolation devices (I am loathe to use the term 'purifiers') you will know that USB certainly does not suck as
it stands today. And it does DSD.

 
Indeed. I currently use a Pi with MPD / UPmpdCLI with excellent results but I was not talking about the practicality of the solution but the culture in Schiit when it comes to USB Audio.

 

[gmahler2u]

Hey Jason!
 
Are you going to make Schiit CD Player?  Schiit's making Pre-amp, power amp...then CD Player?
 
just thinking....

 

[Robert Wortman]

  Well, that line of thinking is exactly people get frustrated with digital file playback. It ain't just data IMHO.
 
By the way I am not a streamer evangelist. I am not on a mission to change or judge any one's sources.
 
Simply reporting what I have experienced sonically. 

​I haven't done much with USB other than a pro audio interface into a pair of powered monitors.  They sound fine to me but I haven't done a bunch of comparisons.   I have used several models of SB feeding FLAC files from Ethernet and WiFI to a DacMagic  and I didn't think it sounded any different than a CD transport feeding the DAC.  I am feeding a TOTL Yamaha universal disk player over wired Ethernet and that sounds transparent to the disc stuck into the player.  I don't know what that Yamaha has in it for a DAC but it sounds very good to me.  Does multichannel DSD too, which is why I have it.   I guess I am comparing streamers to streamers though  When I get the Mimby I just ordered I can hook my laptop to it and sample a USB connection into my main system.   Of course, the  usual argument from other fora I have been on is my system isn't "revealing enough" or my ears aren't any good.  I know my amp/speakers are pretty good but maybe I am not listening for the objectionable stuff I am supposed to hear.  I have heard crap digital sound but it has been years.  Most digital stuff these days sounds pretty passable.  Heck the Chromecast Audio I just got sounds way better than I expected it to for $35.
 
As an aside,  I sometimes think equipment audiophiles report as "revealing" may just be poorly designed and sensitive to cable loading, power supply noise, data clock jitter etc. in ways that properly designed things aren't.  Some of these guys are hobbyists getting paid to make audio gear.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

  Hey Jason!
 
Are you going to make Schiit CD Player?  Schiit's making Pre-amp, power amp...then CD Player?
 
just thinking....

To many moving parts.

 

[DigitalFrontEnd]

Indeed. I currently use a Pi with MPD / UPmpdCLI with excellent results but I was not talking about the practicality of the solution but the culture in Schiit when it comes to USB Audio.

Understood!

And I do understand the folks at Schiit like to swim upstream at times and wear it as a badge of honor..and it
got them pretty far! But I also believe you can only swim upstream for so long in certain areas before you get passed over.