[jdouglas]

This thread *is* becoming pointless, the OP's question was not about whether Ultrasones sound worse/better than other phones, it was about whether there was such a thing as "safer" headphones, to which I think there's been enough evidence to show no headphones conclusively show that they are able to reduce hearing damage.

Peter, if you want to continue defending the Ultrasone's sonic signature against others, why not start a thread in which you review them? That's a much more accepted way on head-fi of sharing your experiences than dumping on any thread that mentions tangentially the Ultrasone's.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdouglas /img/forum/go_quote.gif to which I think there's been enough evidence to show no headphones conclusively show that they are able to reduce hearing damage.

For listening in high noise environments, I think it is safe to say that any phone with high isolation is definitely safer. In this scenario, IEMs are easily the best. Active noise cancellation comes a close second, closed phones a distant third, and open phones last.

Of course for standard 'Hi-Fi' listening at home....... no difference at all. Just be sensible with the volume knob.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aw crap! You found us out! Yes you're right, Beefy has been going around sending everybody on the forum (except you) messages telling them about Ultrasone's marketing being dishonest, so they'll all be unfairly prejudiced against the Great Holy Headphones. How much money will it take for you to keep this quiet so other people don't find out?

Awwwww crud...... all those careful months of planning down the drain........

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by apostate /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....and when I use my AKGs and Senns I have to turn up the volume versus the Ergo2/Westone/Grados/Koss. It's not because of any special technology in the latter, it's simply impedance and sensitivity. Again, the only way to verify if they actually sound louder *at the same level* with respect to other makes is to measure it and make sure that they are actually at the exact same level and then get several people to listen and see if they all subjectively agree it sounds louder. If you can't ensure they are at the same level by way of a scientific measurement any comparison in meaningless for the purposes of evaluating this particular issue. Ant

I agree.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aw crap! You found us out! Yes you're right, Beefy has been going around sending everybody on the forum (except you) messages telling them about Ultrasone's marketing being dishonest, so they'll all be unfairly prejudiced against the Great Holy Headphones. How much money will it take for you to keep this quiet so other people don't find out?

Enough to buy a pair of Ultrasone Ed 9's and a headphone amp that everyone in these forums agrees is the best you can buy. And, you have to drink the same Kool-Aid that you said I drank.

Relax, I was joking about Beefy prejudicing you about Ultrasone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdouglas /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread *is* becoming pointless, the OP's question was not about whether Ultrasones sound worse/better than other phones, it was about whether there was such a thing as "safer" headphones, to which I think there's been enough evidence to show no headphones conclusively show that they are able to reduce hearing damage. Peter, if you want to continue defending the Ultrasone's sonic signature against others, why not start a thread in which you review them? That's a much more accepted way on head-fi of sharing your experiences than dumping on any thread that mentions tangentially the Ultrasone's.

I didn't start this thread and other than one more comment about the topic of this thread, I don't have any more to say.

 

[Lilac1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a research scientist

Clearly

 

[Peter Pinna]

I have a theory as to why the Ultrasone headphones seem louder than other headphones. I think this theory may be one that everyone can agree on (possibly, to some extent, at least) even Beefy.
And, Beefy, don't worry, this will be short.
My extremely simple little theory is this:
The reason that Ultrasone headphones seem louder at the same decibel rating as compared to other headphones has to do with the idea that with Ultrasone headphones, the audio sounds as though it is coming from several directions whereas with conventional (non-Ultrasone) headphones, the audio sounds as though is coming from 3 directions (right, left and middle) only. There are probably other reasons also.

I know it's not scientific but it's something to consider.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues against this theory could be absolutely correct and anyone who agrees with it could also be correct.
To me, it's only a theory to consider as a possibility.

Now, until someone can do some actual scientific tests, that's all I have to say on this topic.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now, until someone can do some actual scientific tests, that's all I have to say on this topic.

Oh, thank Christ.....

 

[eeerie1]

And so ends the most useless thread in Head-Fi history....

 

[Noya]

Wow well this developed into an interesting thread...

I think Im more confused now than I was before... I gusse the bottom line is to play my music as low as possible and not listen to it so much on airplains, trains, etc... (being a New yorker thats very difficult).
the reason I started this Thread was because I was at the studio recording (Im a singer) and while working on the track I handed my in ear head phones to the producer I was working with to listen. and he looked at the phones and said "no way! I dont go near those! (in ear) they kill your ears".
so for me that was a red light about in ears...as much as I luv them....I gotta find something else.
I have my Sennheiser HD555 at home which I like alot. still need one on the go that wont damage my hearing as much as the ones I have now.
Thanks!

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noya /img/forum/go_quote.gif and while working on the track I handed my in ear head phones to the producer I was working with to listen. and he looked at the phones and said "no way! I dont go near those! (in ear) they kill your ears". so for me that was a red light about in ears...as much as I luv them....I gotta find something else.

You should seriously consider the notion that the producer doesn't know what they are talking about.....

In all seriousness, lets forget everything in the thread up to this point. Just read the following document very closely - and ask that producer to read it as well! http://www.hearingconservation.org/d...FligorIves.pdf

There is NO basis to the idea that canalphones cause damage. Just like ANY other phone, if you listen too loud - defined by SPL at the ear drum - you can cause damage. However, the isolation of canalphones allows you to hear the music at much lower volumes when there is lots of external noise.

 

[Peter Pinna]

Oh, gee....

 

[apostate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noya /img/forum/go_quote.gif I gusse the bottom line is to play my music as low as possible and not listen to it so much on airplains, trains, etc... (being a New yorker thats very difficult).

Having headphones and planes/trains/etc can actually be better for your hearing. The key for noisy environments is to have a lot of isolation so that you can listen at a reasonable level without competing with the surrounding noise. With something that provides a lot of isolation like IEMs this may actually result in an overall reduction from the normal ambient noise your ears would have been exposed to.

The key in all circumstances, for any headphones, is the overall spl at the ears. If it's very high you're exposing yourself to hearing damage, if it's reasonable you should be fine.

Ant

 

[d-_- b]

Hi all, just before i start id like to say i didn join to post this message (lolz) even tho this is my first post here n i only joined a few days ago... tho the reason was to decide what head phones to buy...

id also like to say that before joining id NEVER heard of Ultrasone or thier S-logic and ive never tried any of their headphones.. Therefore i hope u'll agree i cant really be biased with this..

After reading through this thread i got interested in this whole argument of Ultrasone's being safer because of this 'S-logic' system. So thats where i started -

Ultrasone says the S-logic system is achieved by 'use of decentralized driver positioning' which 'aims the sound at the outer ear or pinna'.

So next was to learn about the pinna,

wiki - Pinna (anatomy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
'purpose of the pinna is to collect sound. it does so by acting as a funnel, amplifying the sound and directing it to the ear canal' - now we all know wiki isnt necessarily 100% correct or even detailed so of course i didnt conclude nething from that... ;D

The Ear, the Middle Ear, the Inner Ear and the Outer Ear: Hear-it
The section on the outer ear - 'the pinna acts as a kind of funnel which assists in directing the sound further into the ear. Without this funnel the sound waves would take a more direct route into the auditory canal. This would be both difficult and wasteful as much of the sound would be lost making it harder to hear and understand the sounds.'

'The pinna is essential due to the difference in pressure inside and outside the ear. The resistance of the air is higher inside the ear than outside because the air inside the ear is compressed and thus under greater pressure.'

'In order for the sound waves to enter the ear in the best possible way the resistance must not be too high. This is where the pinna helps by overcoming the difference in pressure inside and outside the ear.'

With the part about if sound waves took a direct route into the canal it makes it harder to hear and understand... im pretty sure its meaning the sound directional part that the pinna plays with sound since in-earphones can be easily understood...

HEARING AND BALANCE
This website seems to be an extract of a textbook (ie in the url...) and it explains the function of the pinna entirely!
Acoustic Functions of the external ear -

Pinna - 'does play an important role in hearing'
'Specifically, it alters the amplitude of the incoming sound wave and, in doing so, provides a mechanism for amplifying differentially sounds within the range of frequencies that make up human speech. It also plays a role in the 'spatial' hearing of sounds.'

' For humans, there is an amplification from the free-field to the eardrum of from 5 to 20 dB over the frequency range from about 1.5 to 7 kHz'
'most of the increase arises from two mechanisms:
a) resonance of the concha (the scooped-out area of the extended ear leading to the ear canal opening) around 5 kHz and;
b) resonance of the external canal (closed tube, like an organ pipe) around 2.5 kHz.'

This website also includes a graphed curve - relating the amplitude of the sound in free space to that in the ear drum.
This Graph is interesting as it shows the dB gaines from both the concha and the Ear Canal & Ear Drum.
I read somewhere that the maximum human hearing sensitivity is around 3.5kHz which is close to the peak amplification provided by the ear canal and ear drums in the graph. So it seems the Pinna has evolved together with our most sensitive hearing, and wat makes that even more amazing is the fact that a snaping twig is around the 3.5 kHz range i.e. a predator sneaking up from behind????

Also interestingly - 'The external ear acts as a directional amplifier of sound... shifts in the structure of the transfer function with changes in sound direction provide important cues for sound localization.'

So if the Pinna has the ability to amplify sounds, directing them into the ear cannal like a 'funnel', then the question is whether the S-Logic system directs soundwaves across the Pinna. Which they say it does with their 'decentralized driver'. I couldn find any pics of a pulled apart Ultrasone but i dont really think its necessary to contest this since it only involves directing the sound...

So presuming the 'decentralized driver' directs the sound across the pinna the sound should be amplified and therefore you should be able to listen at a lower volume right? But theoretically if the pinna amplifies that sound then you'd be listening to the same dB anyway right?

Now without an actual study like what Beefy posted about the in-ear phones, i wont try to conclude anything regarding the health benefits of s-logic. Maybe the answer lies in whether the pinna helps smooth the pressure difference between the outer and inner ear as it says in the above article from hear-it.org, tho i didnt come across any study of these pressures so for now i wouldnt think there is much health benefit in S-logic.

Now im sorry to include this in a hearing safety thread, tho its turned into more of an ultrasone thread now P), but id like to say that the effect the pinna has on hearing the direction and depth of sounds is very likely the 'spaced out' feeling people report with Ultrasones. The effect of directing sound across the pinna would trick the brain into interpretting the sound was from 'free space' rather than a sound source right outside the ear...

So there is some truth in ultrasone's system and im fairly interested now to try a pair, tho definitely afraid of a placebo affect on my judgement...

 

[Than]

That's interesting, however owning a pair of Ultrasones I feel that all of this marketing they do is absolute garbage. It has been pointed out before, though I could not say where, that almost all headphone drivers are slightly offset to line up with the ears and not the sides of the head. There is no "surround sound", and I'd have a hard time believing that I perceive the volume to be louder any more so than on my other headphones, but I guess I'd have a hard time disproving that as I lack equipment.

That said, I feel that my 780's are legitimately good headphones, and they serve the purpose I bought them for. However, I'd have a hard time buying another pair of Ultrasones, partly because there are other sound signatures I prefer, partly because of the way they treated their North American distributor, and partly because I really hate marketing BS. My advice would be to try them and see if you like the sound, but don't read into their marketing.