Sabre Dac : MSB underestimate this chip ... Are they right?

[Parafeed]

 
Well, what McD's call chicken perhaps was in a past life. No amount or type of dithering is going to make their nuggets taste of chicken. The best you can hope for is to load them up with so much BBQ sauce that you cant taste anything else anyway, and blissfully pretend you're eating chicken.

 

[middachten]

I prefer a Gaussian Probability Density Function noise shaped chicken pieces. It gives a rounder finish when paired with a nice Rossj Bass from the Langhe region. When mixed at 32bit resolution it will result in a mind boggling dynamic range of 192,7dB. Now thats some high fidelity meal! 

 

[SoupRKnowva]

Quote:

 
Well, what McD's call chicken perhaps was in a past life. No amount or type of dithering is going to make their nuggets taste of chicken. The best you can hope for is to load them up with so much BBQ sauce that you cant taste anything else anyway, and blissfully pretend you're eating chicken.

i didnt realize we were talking about tube amps 

 

[Region2]

I, for one, find his KFC comparison delicious 

 
Great now whenever I look at my rig I'm gonna have a craving for some weird digital chicken.

 

[borrego]

Quote:

KFC chicken analogy...... You obviously have a deep understanding of "digital recording and audio mastering". LOL

In deep analysis reading of KFC: http://www.e2v.com/assets/media/files/documents/broadband-data-converters/doc0869B.pdf 

 

 

[Parafeed]

 
Quote:

In deep analysis reading of KFC: http://www.e2v.com/assets/media/files/documents/broadband-data-converters/doc0869B.pdf 

 

 
Link gives me 404 (not found) "indigestion"!
 

 

[borrego]

Quote:

 
 
Link gives me 404 (not found) "indigestion"!
 

copy link to new broswer window and try again. Not sure why they don't allow direct page linking

 

[Parafeed]

OK, it's a paper expounding the benefit of adding dither to the ADC stage. Dither (noise) is preferable to distortion (truncation). Agreed.
 
I'm not sure how this helps explain what you were trying to say in earlier posts.
 
No addition of dither will "transform" those early to mid 90's CD's, recorded on 16 bit multi-track digital and edited on a DAW at 16 bit without dither. The master is already screwed from crap ADC at the recording stage and multiple edits without dither (truncation) prior to the mastering stage.

You really think there is a benefit to playing them back with an R2R DAC compared to a modern delta-sigma DAC? I don't.
 
As to your other argument about the difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 being some sort of flavour, "noise", "patch", "effect", "tune"..... I simply don't get it. Additional resolution is flavouring? The only way that would make sense is if the 24/96 is produced from a low-res format and upsampled to 24/96. I mean, your whole remastering argument depends on what the remaster is produced from. Only having 16 bit digital to work from is a whole different ball game to having a good 2 track analogue master and using the current ADC technology to produce a high-res digital file. Without getting into silly arguments about macro-dynamics and whether they are buried beneath the noise floor of most reproduction systems, frequency response or psycho-acoustics and information (harmonics) above 22k, compression and brick wall limiting, it just seems plain silly to suggest that high-res isn't about resolution, it's about flavour, when compared to a lower-res but dithered recording.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

I prefer a Gaussian Probability Density Function noise shaped chicken pieces. It gives a rounder finish when paired with a nice Rossj Bass from the Langhe region. When mixed at 32bit resolution it will result in a mind boggling dynamic range of 192,7dB. Now thats some high fidelity meal! 

Wait a minute, I thought this was a discussion about chicken integrity, are you trying to derail this thread with your fish comparisons?  Fish can't even walk the last time I looked.

 

[borrego]

Hi Parafeed,
 
Can you read my original post again and find where I put the "remastered" word?
 
You imply that there is chance that "some" commercially available 16bit/44kHz audio media are made without dithering or noise shaping? Did you read in my 2nd post, I stated the situation where vocals were recorded using a 76db S/N microphone?
 
You imply that there is chance that "some" current commercially available 24bit/96kHz audio media are made without dithering or noise shaping and actually have the full resolution of 24bit filled with "real" audio signals? May I suggest you to check out the specifications of the current commercially available 24bit ADC chips and see if you can find a single one without on chip dithering?
 
My original arguements were:
1. Music produced in 90s are recorded by then current ADC chips, with dithering topology meant for play back using then current mainstream DAC chips. If you want to listen to what the origianal producer intended you to listen to (my definition of "natural" and "high fidelity") .... use a DAC with a 90s DAC chip (Wine is meant  to serve with Steak)
 
2. Music produced in 2010 are recorded by current crops of delta sigma ADC chips, with dithering topology meant for play back using current mainstream delta sigma DAC chips. If you want to listen to what the original producer intended you to listen to (my definition of "natural" and "high fidelity")....use a DAC with the current delta-sigma chip. (Coke is meant to serve with Hamburger)
 
Of course there are people who prefer (or don't mind) to drink wine when eating hamburger, drink coke when eating steak. There is nothing wrong with that as these are just personal preferences.
 
I ordered an Audio-gd Sabre32 DAC and is waiting for its delivery....because I think the Audio-gd DAC is of good value, and a larger number of my music library were produced by modern delta sigma ADC. And base on the Sabre32 user opinions I read, they don't have the usual harshless of delta-sigma chip (i.e. this new Coke Zero taste better then the Diet Coke I used to drink)
 
Some time in future, there could be commercially available ADC chips that can give the full, "real" 24bit resolution you stated. Just not now with current technologies. But it doen't matter. As long as digital music are still recorded from musical instruments and microphone with < 80 db S/N ratio, and not from digital ultrasonic signal generator, the 24bit headroom cannot be filled up with "real" source signals without using of dithering.

 

[middachten]

Quote:

Wait a minute, I thought this was a discussion about chicken integrity, are you trying to derail this thread with your fish comparisons?  Fish can't even walk the last time I looked.

I was trying to test if there are wine lovers on this forum

Rossj Bass is a Chardonnay based wine from the Piemonte region in Northern Italy. Its made by the famous Gaja.
Music-Food-Wine: the best pairing in the world!
 

 

[regal]

Quote:

 
 
No addition of dither will "transform" those early to mid 90's CD's, recorded on 16 bit multi-track digital and edited on a DAW at 16 bit without dither. The master is already screwed from crap ADC at the recording stage and multiple edits without dither (truncation) prior to the mastering stage.

You really think there is a benefit to playing them back with an R2R DAC compared to a modern delta-sigma DAC? I don't.
 

 I think you need to study up on what was available back then,  in fact the PM 2 and the PM 1 are two ADC's that top studio's own in the  90's and people are literally waiting in line to buy used ones now at 2x-3x their original cost?   You are thinking of mid 80's recordings.
 
In fact the 90's were before the loudness war set in and many consider the early 90's the "golden age" of digital audio.   Why do you think small studio's are trying to obtain old PM1's,  do you think it has something to do to the fact that Sigma-Delta ADC's aren't as good?   Why does Lavry's top ADC not use S-D,  instead a custom cut R2R?
 
In my experience the Sigma-Delta chips like the Sabre just don't do the midrange (especially upper midrange) justice,  best explaination is they are literally a SMPS which create jitter in the conversion. 
 
My opinion has been this way for years, I was called a heretic on this forum for even suggesting it.  Then Audio-Gd came and R2R's were "en vougue".   Now that Audio-gd is going after a cheaper market sector,  all of a sudden the Sigma-Delta DAC's are OK again.  Fool me once,  but now fool me twice?  I don't think so,  consumers are smarter than that.
 
So I highly recommend anyone with a collection of 90's CD's to try a good R2R DAC,  you will be shocked .

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

 
 
So I highly recommend anyone with a collection of 90's CD's to try a good R2R DAC,  you will be shocked .

Shocked I was, by a cheap R2R dac.  I mirror your observations

 

[regal]

Quote:

 
2. Music produced in 2010 are recorded by current crops of delta sigma ADC chips, with dithering topology meant for play back using current mainstream delta sigma DAC chips. If you want to listen to what the original producer intended you to listen to (my definition of "natural" and "high fidelity")....use a DAC with the current delta-sigma chip. (Coke is meant to serve with Hamburger)
 

This is just not true,  the good studios are still using R2R,  the most popular are the Pacific Microsonics 2 and the Lavry ADC.   Now if you are buying loudness war compress Pop which  is recorded with D_S ADC most of it having a dynamic range of less than 12dB (thats 2 bits of a DAC)  you are better off just sticking with an ipod.
 

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

 I think you need to study up on what was available back then,  in fact the PM 2 and the PM 1 are two ADC's that top studio's own in the  90's and people are literally waiting in line to buy used ones now at 2x-3x their original cost?   You are thinking of mid 80's recordings.

I'm not talking about the 80's. The first gen digital multi-track recorders were not introduced until the early 90's. Pro Tools HD.... 2002! (Digital mixing/editing prior to that.... well, the less said the better.) As I recall, the PM A/D/A's..... mid 90's. And if you think that the PM A/D/A's were in general use for anything other than mastering........