[ponzio]

What do you say to people who don’t hear a difference in audio equipment?

Background:
Last night a friend asked about the pile of electronics growing in the corner of my apartment. I explained that it was the headphone setup I had talked so much about lately.

My rig consists of the following: Sony DVP-S9000ES --- > Radio Shack Gold Interconnects --- > Corda HA-1 (w/ Quail power cord) --- > HD600 w/ Clou Red and RS 1/4” to 1/8” converter. The Sony, RS Interconnects and Clou all have less than 30 hours clocked at this time.

After a brief discussion, my friend, who has a background and training as a classical musician, inquired about the necessity of a headphone amplifier. Beyond the obvious answer, which is that the S9000ES lacks a headphone jack thus making headphone listening otherwise impossible, I said that the amplifier provided a better sound than say, for example, a portable CD player. My friend, who lacks a background in electronics and was therefore not receptive to my brief explanation of D/A converter quality, capacitor size etc., was skeptical and requested a comparison of the S9000ES + Corda v. my Meicer MP-3 / CD player.


The test:
We played approximately 1 minute of the first movement of Mozart’s Symphony No. 25 (Telarc CCD-80165) using the HD600 / Clou / RS converter first on the Meicer (using 2AA rechargeable batteries), then through the S9000ES + Corda (which had been running for the past 12 hours as part of the breaking-in process), then returned to the Meicer.


The results:
My friend went first and was unable to tell any discernable difference between the two setups. My friend concluded that, for redbook playback, the Sony / Corda combo did not provide any utility above the Meicer aside from the ability to reach needlessly high volume levels.

Now it was my turn, and I felt an enormous pressure because I had never before done this comparison, but also because I felt that at this point no matter what I said, this friend of mine would not be swayed in their opinion. I must admit that I was a bit surprised at what I heard.

I expected to be struck over the head with obvious differences, even though I know that audio equipment doesn’t change the notes of the music, only their presentation. I did hear differences between the two setups, although they were more subtle than I expected.

Using the Sony + Corda: Violin attacks were “sharper” and had more texture generally, specifically higher harmonics, there was a greater separation between individual instruments, and less background noise at higher volumes.

Using the Meicer: Instruments were more “muddied” generally, i.e. less easy to distinguish between, the unit sounded as if it were “struggling” to reproduce the music during complicated passages as well as at higher volumes, and it had the occasional “pop” during playback.

I let my friend listen again in hopes that they would at least nod at some point and say that they could understand why I heard what I did. Unfortunately, my friend shared none of my observations and dismissed them as a rationalization of my subjective fondness for my new expensive toys. [It had grown late in the evening and we had no time for blind testing.] In an attempt to thwart this assertion of total subjectivity, I replied that others (thinking of the legion of head-fi’ers and audiophiles generally) who, while their tastes may vary, are able to independently reach the same conclusions about audio equipment.
[As I understand it, redbook playback of the S9000ES is about average for it’s price point, and the Corda is well regarded in it’s price point.]


Question:
This brings me to my question, What do you typically say to people who don’t hear a difference between audio equipment in tests such as this?

What should I have done differently? Was 1 minute too short a time? I know many here have the S9000ES and / or the Corda, what things should I have told my friend to listen for during the demonstration?


I think, for the above-stated reasons, during redbook playback, the Sony / Corda combo sounded better than the $40.00 Meicer MP-3 / CD player, but not $1100 better.


Thanks much for any comments.


P.S. Please pardon any misuse of audio adjectives, this is my first attempt to explain / describe differences in audio equipment.

P.P.S. Note: In what I consider a very minor victory, my friend did hear an obvious difference between the HD600 / Clou v. Koss Portapro played through the Sony + Corda combo.

 

[Nezer]

I say to people that don't hear the difference, "Congratulations". They won't be dropping all thier cash to constantly upgrade thier audio setup.

I somewhat long for the days when I didn't care to hear the difference.

Just tell your friend that he/she is paying for dinner from now on becasue they will have money and you'll be broke.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Well, the difficulty lies in the source really. It's not very easy for people to discern what exactly makes a source better...it took me forever and I was a skeptic for the longest time for about the exact same reason as your friend there. There just seemed to be no audible, leap in your face difference. It takes a discerning ear to be able to hear the airiness between instruments that a better CDP offers, the better sense you get of where the music is taking place, the realism, timber, naturality, details, etc. The first major positive new thing I heard when I auditioned a 9000ES was how airy it sounded compared to what I was used to, and that's hardly something your average joe is going to recognize off the bat...or be looking for. If you were trying to impress your friend with your audio equipment, showing off the CDP would be the worst way to do it. Showing off the two headphones first would have been the much easier way to bring him to the dark side.

It also sometimes takes speakers to truly tell the difference between two CDPs. One thing I've discovered about Sonys is that they generally have a much greater bass response than other players, and after listening to a Sony, other players can sound thin and sterile in the bass. Using a pair of speakers this becomes obvious, and there's just no way a portable player can achieve that same level of impact and dynamics in the bass. Basically better CDPs also offer improvements in the realism department as well as audible, and you're just not going to be able to get the realism half from headphones.

BTW, I strongly recommend you upgrade your interconnects...the Radio Shack interconnects are definitely strangling what the 9000ES is fully capable of. I had those for the longest time, using them from CDP to CDP, but then I finally took the plunge and spent on some nice interconnects after I got my 9000ES. Swapping back to the RS cables produced a much thinner, constricted sound than what my current Totems pass through.

But in the end, I would never tell my friends to listen to my setup and expect them to hear anything "better", or my parents. I'd call it being musically satisfied, they'd call it the biggest waste of money on the face of the earth, especially for the cables. In fact I don't dare tell my friends or family how much my setup really costs.

 

[fiddler]

But Vertigo, he wasn't comparing just the CDPs.. He was comparing a PCDP alone vs. the combination of a good CDP AND a headphone amp... I think there would be quite a significant gap between those two, especially considering he was using the hard-to-drive HD600.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Quote:

But Vertigo, he wasn't comparing just the CDPs

Boiling it back down though I still say it's the CDP. Tonally the HD-600s aren't going to change jumping from a lesser CDP to a greater one, especially if one uses a solid state amp (and yes I see that he didn't use the amp with the portable player). Most people that hear something that costs more expects it to be tonally better, which is the wrong way to look at it. Apparently even ponzio found it slightly hard to discern what's the differences, if he hadn't gone looking at the presentation. This is the problem with most people first going into high end audio. They listen for tonal differences and can't even begin to consider the rest of the presentation. And this is why Bose is still in business.

I would think the Corda should have filled up the midrange considerably more and provided a much deeper bass response, as that's where the HD-600s improve the most with a better amp. Whether or not the average joe can hear that is another story.

 

[danieln]

I am not familiar with that symphony, but it is possible that it is not the best demo material for your purposes. If you listen to Mozart, you might think for example that the AKG 501s have enough bass, simply because there is no bass in the material.

The second thing is (my opinion, no flames) that the headphones themselves make the biggest difference in sound. Since you used the same headphones, the differences were probably pretty small. This leads me to the third point:

Finally, better electronics provide better performance, but it takes a very discerning ear to hear and appreciate the differences. The law of diminishing returns is still valid

For you, those differences might be worth the price. For most people (i.e., with no specific interest in headphones), it ain't worth it.

 

[danieln]

Hey Vertigo-1 you beat me by a few minutes - your comments are very similar to mine

Actually, my comments are very similar to yours, since you posted first. D'oh!

 

[Tim D]

Subtle differences? So I'm assuming this Meicer Mp3/CD player I've never heard of is actually a pretty damn good player?

 

[Neruda]

that's exactly what I'm thinking!

 

[RickG]

Meicer MP2000:

http://www.impactcomputers.com/mp2000.html

 

[Vertigo-1]

Uhh, that looks like a ripoff of that one Sony CD player you find in Wal-marts and K-marts!

 

[RickG]

It's funky lookin' alright, lol.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nezer I say to people that don't hear the difference, "Congratulations". They won't be dropping all thier cash to constantly upgrade thier audio setup. I somewhat long for the days when I didn't care to hear the difference.

Nezer, that's exactly what I was going to say

 

[grinch]

this reminds me of a story with a deeply concealed point:

once i was in a tattoo parlor when a woman who was about to get work done was describing what the symbol on the back of her neck meant.. it was something or other about her being a god, because she believes that she is. (whether or not i agree with this is something different) anyway, the artist replies to her "and that's fine, because if anybody doesn't like it.. you can tell them to kiss your ass."

sorry, i guess maybe you had to be there.

anybody kinda get my point?

as long as you get enjoyment out of it, what does it matter to anybody else in the world? besides, if you're at all like me, i never like something new as much as something old. i.e. i grow to love whatever i own and use for a long time. in other words, i'm a packrat and will NEVER EVER SELL ANY OF MY AUDIO EQUIPMENT! muwahahah!

 

[BenG]

This a great example of how liberty is a good thing.

I recently read on the AR cable forum that the moderator "Adam" wants to see the cable industry more regulated. It was buried in a separate thread, but he does actually say it.