RSA F-117 Nighthawk Phono Preamp Impressions and Appreciation Thread
Mar 10, 2010 at 8:01 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 89

HeadphoneAddict

Headphoneus Supremus
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I got the Nighthawk yesterday and tried it out, and wanted to post a couple of things while it burns-in (recommended 200 hours). I thought this would be a good place to post impressions, rather than in a paid MOT thread. Feel free to post positives and negatives here. I hooked it up to my NAD C555 Rega P2 clone, with Ortofon Blue M2 cartridge, feeding it into my EC ZDT amp and listening to HD800 for a couple of hours last night.

First off, I noticed right away an improvement in the mids over my current GEMsound PL-USB phono preamp. The mids are richer and more tangible or present, and I feel like there's more substance to them. Female vocals sound more organic now. The bass was also stronger, and more tactile which benefitted the HD800 nicely. Detail was also a little better, and the air and ambience were also a little better, although the soundstage was a little more forward and intimate, and this was with just 1-2 hours on the nighthawk!

I also compared the same Nancy Bryan "Neon Angel" 180g LP with the 24/96 download, albeit via Airport Express optical which should be down-sampling the hi-res music to 16/48 before feeding that into my PS Audio Perfectwave DAC. The vinyl rig has a little better bass presence with fuller, richer and more engaging mids now; but it also has more disc noise and a little less air, ambience and soundstage depth than the AE > PWD. The differences are not huge, but they are there. What I thought about the most last night was the AE > PWD sounded closer to a very good recording and the Nighthawk rig sounded more like a real person singing, with the vibrations of the vocal cords happening right there.

The PWD is fully burned in and the Nighthawk is fresh out of the box. I wont say the F-117 is better due to the more organic vocals and stronger bass with HD800, because I really need to connect my Macbook directly to the PWD via USB and Optical, and not use the Airport Express which is supposed to have a lot of jitter as a transport. I feel the AE is questionable because the PWD with a CD via coax input clearly beats the same ripped CD via Airport Express optical. I just don't have Nancy Bryan on a CD to compare coax input of the DAC to the Nighthawk yet. What surprises me is that I'll have half as much money invested in the vinyl rig than just the PWD, and before burn-in it already competes will with a high end DAC, albeit using a questionable transport. The issue is that I must use my best digital transport in future comparisons, and I'll need more vinyl that matches what CDs and hi-res downloads that I have.

The Nighthawk vinyl rig is also a good bit louder than the PWD even when the PWD is set to 100% volume, and the phono preamp gain seems to be almost bordering on too much when on the lowest setting. With peaks and transients it keeps making me want to clean my cartridge needle that shouldn't be dirty. Sherwood tells me that a very capable person set up the cartridge, but I'll need to have the VTA checked again, along with alignment. I'll also need to invest in better LP cleaning accessories than my carbon fiber brush and needle brush.

This phono preamp is supposed to need 200 hours of burn-in, which could take me months if I listen to 2 albums a day, and I don't have that many! In the meantime, I'm not sure I'm cut out for vinyl anymore, as my last vinyl rig in 1991 was fully automatic and would start and stop on command. I'm getting too lazy in my old age, and I don't enjoy the ritual of washing discs and cuing up the first track, or flipping discs as much as I did years ago. These days I like the black background of digital, and I like how well 24/96 music replicates analog for me. But if I am going to continue to dabble in analog audio even though I am focusing more on my digital rig, the Nighthawk is the most I would spend on a phono preamp because it does the job so well that it doesn't seem like I will need anything better any time soon.
 
Mar 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM Post #2 of 89
Nice post, Larry. You come at vinyl from a different perspective than I do, so it's nice for me to read your comments.
 
Mar 10, 2010 at 8:18 PM Post #3 of 89
Thanks! I enjoy reading your thoughts. Larry, I strongly suggest that if you plan to get into vinyl a little more, do invent into a VPI 16.5 or similar. You will have reduced surfaced noise to zero or very little so you can really compare vinyl with digital playback more appropriately. Vinyl requires a little work for sure....but the payback is oh so sweet!

Can't wait to get my package from Ray. After the tweaks he made since listening to the original/prototype version in my rig, I knew EXACTLY what the Nighthawk needed from a sound perspective. Looks like he tweaked those very things in the final version so I'm very excited.
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 8:32 AM Post #4 of 89
I called the local Hi-Fi store about setting up my TT and cart again, in case things are off a little bit, so I'll probably spend the $60 to set up my current cartridge again on Friday (the tech is off on Thursdays of course). I'll see if they can examine the stylus under a lupe or scope as well.

They suggested I buy a $500 Grado MC cartridge to get the most out of my vinyl rig. Big surprise. I am resisting the spinning sucking vortex of upgrades for now.
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 1:57 PM Post #5 of 89
Sorry you don't live in Chicago, Larry - I'd have done it for you for free
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. I have gotten pretty good at cartridge set-up, and I won't let anyone do it but me. I have a couple protractors, and several scales to get VTF just exactly right. I spent like 3 hours fussing with my Benz and Scoutmaster when I got them, but it was worth it
biggrin.gif
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 4:59 PM Post #6 of 89
Do you guys run the Nighthawk into a preamp or does it go straight to your headphone amp?
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 5:37 PM Post #7 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by YoNni22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do you guys run the Nighthawk into a preamp or does it go straight to your headphone amp?


You can do it both ways. Nighthawk to Preamp for speaker setup OR Nighthawk to Headphone amp.

A phono stage just gives you a line level signal. Do whatever you want with it
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 6:26 PM Post #8 of 89
Thanks for your response. I need to wait another week to save up enough cash to get this. In the meantime, I've been looking at another phono stage. Has anyone here used a PS Audio GCPH?
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 9:06 PM Post #9 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry you don't live in Chicago, Larry - I'd have done it for you for free
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
. I have gotten pretty good at cartridge set-up, and I won't let anyone do it but me. I have a couple protractors, and several scales to get VTF just exactly right. I spent like 3 hours fussing with my Benz and Scoutmaster when I got them, but it was worth it
biggrin.gif



I could have saved $20 even after shipping it to you and back! Oh well... The only reason I am even rechecking my TT setup and considering a nicer cartridge is that the mids and bass on the UN-burned-in Nighthawk was very good. I hooked the Nighthawk up to my WES using balanced input transformers, and with my HE60 it sounded even better. (I had bought the WES demo without SE inputs.)

I might just stay in the budget realm and look at the Denon DL-103 cart that several people recommended, but I read a lot of budget cartridge reviews last night and noticed a lot of them sound "hard" with transients, like my Ortofon. So, I'm not sure I would want to stay in the budget realm. I saw a place selling Grado MC carts in the low $300's and will need to study up more on the subject.

I even ordered a record cleaner last night after I posted, but I chose the budget $59 "Spin Clean" and later will look at a VPI 16.5 if I really do get back into vinyl wholeheartedly with a nicer MC cartridge.
 
Mar 11, 2010 at 9:07 PM Post #10 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by YoNni22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks for your response. I need to wait another week to save up enough cash to get this. In the meantime, I've been looking at another phono stage. Has anyone here used a PS Audio GCPH?


No, but you could do a search and find the PS Audio GCPH thread.
very_evil_smiley.gif


Also, PS Audio has a forum that you may find some answers there as well.
 
Mar 12, 2010 at 12:03 AM Post #11 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Nighthawk is the most I would spend on a phono preamp because it does the job so well that it doesn't seem like I will need anything better any time soon.


Larry:

One thing that a successful review has in my opinion is reference. If what you're reviewing is, from what I gather, your second phono stage (the first being one purchased from Guitar Center perhaps?) then it might be wise to get a broader exposure before posting a review such as this one.

Also, with regard to burn-in, you might consider purchasing one of these (perhaps picking up a soldering iron for the first time and building one, it would be a nice first DIY project):

Hagerman Technology LLC: iRIAA Filter for Phonostage DIY Kit

This will allow you to burn in a phono stage using a source such as a CD player or DAC. It's pretty cool little tool.
 
Mar 12, 2010 at 1:30 AM Post #12 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by luvdunhill /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Larry:

One thing that a successful review has in my opinion is reference. If what you're reviewing is, from what I gather, your second phono stage (the first being one purchased from Guitar Center perhaps?) then it might be wise to get a broader exposure before posting a review such as this one.

Also, with regard to burn-in, you might consider purchasing one of these (perhaps picking up a soldering iron for the first time and building one, it would be a nice first DIY project):

Hagerman Technology LLC: iRIAA Filter for Phonostage DIY Kit

This will allow you to burn in a phono stage using a source such as a CD player or DAC. It's pretty cool little tool.



I made my frame of reference clear - that I am coming from the "I am not spending more than this on a phono preamp because I am not all that into analog" camp.

So if you can find me a phono preamp for less that sounds this good then I say thank you because that benefits everyone. I wanted to buy Hopstretch's Pass Pearl for $500, but he couldn't wait for my tax refund to arrive. I completely understand that and hold nothing against him.

I am in no way saying that there is nothing out there better than this. I thought that was obvious. Secondly, this is not a "review" in the traditional sense. I didn't want to post in the MOT thread or the "speculation" thread with my thoughts.

Thanks for the link to the burn-in device. I will check it out even if it was meant as a veiled insult in reference to my apparent lack of DIY skills (Ihave 3 soldering irons - butane, battery and 110v - I just can't read a schematic, or music.)
 
Mar 12, 2010 at 2:39 AM Post #13 of 89
Larry, the Hagtech kits are very straight forward and excellent projects.

I'd recommend buying one and trying it out. My favorite phono stage in this price range in this price range hands down the Bugle, which Jim also sells in addition to the iRIAA circuit. In fact, you can get it fully assembled. It runs of a pair of 9v batteries and allows for opamp rolling. I believe the kit is $50 and the assembled version is $150 (I could be wrong about that, check Hagerman Technology LLC) I'd absolutely love to hear your comparison once you try it, I think it would definitely be worth your time and money.
 
Mar 12, 2010 at 3:38 AM Post #14 of 89
Quote:

Originally Posted by luvdunhill /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Larry, the Hagtech kits are very straight forward and excellent projects.

I'd recommend buying one and trying it out. My favorite phono stage in this price range in this price range hands down the Bugle, which Jim also sells in addition to the iRIAA circuit. In fact, you can get it fully assembled. It runs of a pair of 9v batteries and allows for opamp rolling. I believe the kit is $50 and the assembled version is $150 (I could be wrong about that, check Hagerman Technology LLC) I'd absolutely love to hear your comparison once you try it, I think it would definitely be worth your time and money.



I would like to check them out. When I was looking for a budget phono preamp back in November and December I was directed to the Bellari by one person, and I think it might have been Hopstretch that recommended a Hagerman Bugle to me and said the Bellari was not as good ((would have to check my PM). Then his Pass Pearl came up for sale and I forgot all about the Bugle, which I thought I would be forced to build myself.

The place that is going to re-do the set up on my TT/cart tomorrow only had the Bellari and NADPP2 in stock last time I went there, so I wasn't that sure about them being turntable experts. But they assure me they have an experienced person in TT setup there on Friday. This reminds me that I forgot to mention that I did buy the NAD PP2 in November, which I didn't think was a big upgrade over my GEMsound preamp and I returned it.

But the GEMsound is a noticeable step above my 17 year old Radio Shack phono preamp (mini-integrated amp). I have a couple of needle-drop recordings made using the GEMsound USB with my NAD C555 and Ortofon Blue M2, that some people thought sounded fairly good back in December. But this music wasn't very dynamic and didn't reveal the limitations of the TT/cart. I didn't have a better quality LP in the house at the time. I have a sample with the raw audacity audio data converted to AIFF, and one that I ran through Bias's Sound Soap application.

Raw:
http://www.jesusreigns.org/Handel Me...1 raw demo.aif

http://www.jesusreigns.org/Handel Me...2 raw demo.aif

Sound Soap:
hhttp://www.jesusreigns.org/Handel M... 1 SS demo.aif

hhttp://www.jesusreigns.org/Handel M... 2 SS demo.aif

At this point, I think the weak point in my rig is going to be my cartridge, and I don't know how helpful it will be to compare an $80 PP to $150 PP to $650 PP. I'm looking forward to quieter records with the LP cleaner, and you can hear the surface noise in my needle drops that I removed with soundsoap, but SS took out some of the air and ambience as well.
 

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