[pompon]

I own those 2 amps ATM.

I am using Apache in balanced with my HD650 (equinox balanced).
I am using MPX3 in single end with my HD650 (equinox single end).

My CD player is a true balanced and have both RCA and XLR output.


Here what I hear:

MPX3:

- More mid-bass
- Far better voices with more body and 1-2 steps away from the orchestra
- More dynamic and impact
- Soundstage is more narrow (music should come mostly front of me ... not too much each side of me ... ). ** Depending what I am listening, can be an advantage or not ...
- On certain recording, can have impression to have a certain veil.
- Musicality ...

Apache:

- Better extention (bass and highs)
- Less mid-bass
- Less dynamic and impact
- Soundstage is much larger (it's a bit annoying because I am loosing the sense of a front performing). ** Depending what I am listening, can be an advantage or not ...
- Vocals lack body and are in the orchestra ..
(normally, the performer should be front of the orchestra).
- Can be a tad bright for my tastes in certain recording...


The music I am listening the most are better with the MPX3.

I am understand why peaple can keep both ...
But for sure, Apache is not good enough to make me sell my MPX3.

Probably have to upgrade with balanced tube SinglePower to have what I am looking it at.

Balanced vs unbalanced on Apache is interesting upgrade.

I am using Virtual Dynamic Master 3.0 powercord on apache. This PowerCord have a very very large soundstage .. I will try a different one to narrow the soundstage and using a different XLR cable to try to raise down a bit the highs.

Different opamp can probably affect the mid range and the dynamic.

BTW, on my MPX3, I am using Sylvianna 6SN7GT and 2 x TungSol D-Getter.
I don't like the Ken-Rad 6SN7GT ... lack speed and definition.

 

[jamato8]

So are you comparing the balanced Apache to the single ended MPX3 or the Apache in single ended? If in balanced for the Apache what do you hear when using the Apache in single ended?

 

[aaron313]

Quote:

I am using Apache in balanced with my HD650 (equinox balanced).

^

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pompon /img/forum/go_quote.gif The music I am listening the most are better with the MPX3. I am understand why peaple can keep both ... But for sure, Apache is not good enough to make me sell my MPX3.

So .... most of the music you listen to is better on the MPX3. I have found I prefer single ended tubes over any balanced SS I have heard .... especially op amp based SS.

If you hear a veil with the MPX3 and the 650 .... try the 600 .... the 580 or 600 is much clearer sounding.

 

[pompon]

Yes, full balanced using the Apache and full single end using the MPX3.

Balanced vs single end using the Apache

- Much more width soundstage in balanced.
- More details in balanced
- Better tones in balanced
- Less congestionned in balanced
- Better depth of soundstage in balanced

For me, it's clear winner ...

It's why I will look balanced tube amp for future.

 

[pompon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif So .... most of the music you listen to is better on the MPX3. I have found I prefer single ended tubes over any balanced SS I have heard .... especially op amp based SS. If you hear a veil with the MPX3 and the 650 .... try the 600 .... the 580 or 600 is much clearer sounding.

My friend have HD580 ... they share the same sound family ... but the comparaison stop there.

HD580 produce "in head" soundstage ... It's pretty left / right. I hate that.
HD650 is airy and produre a depth and wide soundstage ... Bass/Highs / Voices don't have the same quality IMO.

HD580 with Equinox cable begin to give me sound I like ... but still not enough. The HD600 share the same driver as the HD580 but better cables and construction.

BTW, I don't like too bright headphone ... When I switch Apache to MPX3, my ears compensate for highs and the MPX3 don't give the same amount, it's why I have impression to have a certain veil. After 5-6 min, it's gone and I enjoy music.

Apache balanced is far from bad ... but not have the magical sound I get with my MPX3.

 

[vcoheda]

seems like you would be happy with a balanced SP amp.

 

[Tbln]

Interesting observations that echo much of my own experiences with SS and tubed amplfication. Also using the Apache & MPX3 Slam.

They both present different perspectives on sound and I like them both enough to keep both.

Balanced appears to prevail over single-ended, but the jury is deadlocked on SS vs Tubes.

I actually posted my experiences on a local headphone forum here: Going balanced: My journey with The Apache - SGHeadphones

 

[Frihed89]

Doesn't it depend on what tubes you are using? I found that when i compared my Blue Circle SBH to my SP MPX3 Slam SE, using 6SN7W output tubes with Amperex 7062 pinched waist as the input, it was hard to pick which one I preferred as a headphone amp due to the many trade-offs. The SBH is clearly the better preamp by a mile, much smoother, more neutral and detailed and better balanced, plus no excessive gain problems. However, I am keeping the MPX3 because it can be voiced in so many different ways and i have a small fortune in tubes that i can't use in other gear.

 

[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pompon /img/forum/go_quote.gif I own those 2 amps ATM. I am using Apache in balanced with my HD650 (equinox balanced). I am using MPX3 in single end with my HD650 (equinox single end). My CD player is a true balanced and have both RCA and XLR output. Here what I hear: MPX3: - More mid-bass - Far better voices with more body and 1-2 steps away from the orchestra - More dynamic and impact - Soundstage is more narrow (music should come mostly front of me ... not too much each side of me ... ). ** Depending what I am listening, can be an advantage or not ... - On certain recording, can have impression to have a certain veil. - Musicality ... Apache: - Better extention (bass and highs) - Less mid-bass - Less dynamic and impact - Soundstage is much larger (it's a bit annoying because I am loosing the sense of a front performing). ** Depending what I am listening, can be an advantage or not ... - Vocals lack body and are in the orchestra .. (normally, the performer should be front of the orchestra). - Can be a tad bright for my tastes in certain recording... The music I am listening the most are better with the MPX3. I am understand why peaple can keep both ... But for sure, Apache is not good enough to make me sell my MPX3. Probably have to upgrade with balanced tube SinglePower to have what I am looking it at. Balanced vs unbalanced on Apache is interesting upgrade. I am using Virtual Dynamic Master 3.0 powercord on apache. This PowerCord have a very very large soundstage .. I will try a different one to narrow the soundstage and using a different XLR cable to try to raise down a bit the highs. Different opamp can probably affect the mid range and the dynamic. BTW, on my MPX3, I am using Sylvianna 6SN7GT and 2 x TungSol D-Getter. I don't like the Ken-Rad 6SN7GT ... lack speed and definition.

Please use 18AWG AC cord on the Apache, any coputer grade will do.
No heavy AWG after market AC cord. Don't plug the Apache into any conditioner BUT into the wall outlet only. The Apache has a discrete output buffers. You can try LT1028, AD797 & AD8610 to adj. the sound to your liking.
Cheers.
Ray Samuels

 

[jh4db536]

Never heard the SP amp, but i could agree/disgree with some points.

Extension, details, and soundstage are first things to come to mind with the Apache. I agree with it being leaner on midbass (the 650 has plenty) and i thought it balances out nicely.

Bright, depends on the source brightness, but generally yes. I felt it was the cure to the 650's darkness. Im, also using the equinox cable.

Impact and fullness, depends on the source. When i was using the Apache with the DAC1 it was only acceptable on the bass (but perfect highs). Then i started playing with the Opus DAC, which led to more slam than any combination i have tried so far (but the mid-treble is harsh, completely intolerable with All other cans except the 650 which is polite enough to make extremes tolerable...even the HD600 is a bit too aggressive).

Obviously our ears have different preferences for sound.
Should try the B-52

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh4db536 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Never heard the SP amp, but i could agree/disgree with some points. Extension, details, and soundstage are first things to come to mind with the Apache. I agree with it being leaner on midbass (the 650 has plenty) and i thought it balances out nicely. Bright, depends on the source brightness, but generally yes. I felt it was the cure to the 650's darkness. Im, also using the equinox cable. Impact and fullness, depends on the source. When i was using the Apache with the DAC1 it was only acceptable on the bass (but perfect highs). Then i started playing with the Opus DAC, which led to more slam than any combination i have tried so far (but the mid-treble is harsh, completely intolerable with All other cans except the 650 which is polite enough to make extremes tolerable...even the HD600 is a bit too aggressive). Obviously our ears have different preferences for sound. Should try the B-52

How do you know your ears have a different preferance if you have never heard the amp used in the comparison?

I have yet to hear the SS amp, single ended or balanced, that outperforms the MPX3 with a good tube set .... especially for musicality.

 

[jh4db536]

i am reminding there's always an element of subjectiveness in sound in general using my experience with the apache as an example. I have implied NOTHING about the MPX3 because i have not heard it. Example, having different tolerance/reasons for the brightness. You could see it as a strength (the 650 is too dark already) or a weakness (it's harsh for my ears). Or, "When I switch Apache to MPX3, my ears compensate for highs and the MPX3 don't give the same amount, it's why I have impression to have a certain veil."

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh4db536 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i am reminding there's always an element of subjectiveness in sound in general using my experience with the apache as an example. I have implied NOTHING about the MPX3 because i have not heard it. Example, having different tolerance/reasons for the brightness. You could see it as a strength (the 650 is too dark already) or a weakness (it's harsh for my ears). Or, "When I switch Apache to MPX3, my ears compensate for highs and the MPX3 don't give the same amount, it's why I have impression to have a certain veil."

I guess I am saying if you did hear the MPX3 how do you know you would not agree with pompon?

As for the veil, I think the 650 sounds to dark with any of the 20+ amps I have used the 650 with. If the amp can make 650 sound neutral than you can bet the amp IS lean and brightish.

 

[pompon]

Can you explain why after market AC cord are not good with Apache ?

Apache use opamp .. for sound or for DC redressing (affecting just a little bit the sonority) ?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please use 18AWG AC cord on the Apache, any coputer grade will do. No heavy AWG after market AC cord. Don't plug the Apache into any conditioner BUT into the wall outlet only. The Apache has a discrete output buffers. You can try LT1028, AD797 & AD8610 to adj. the sound to your liking. Cheers. Ray Samuels