[mulder01]

Ok nobody liked my car analogy because sometimes you don't just want the standard tyres.  Fair enough.  I still maintain that spending your $2.5k on a $500 car and adding $2000 tryes to it is a dumb idea.

 

[U-3C]

Ok nobody liked my car analogy because sometimes you don't just want the standard tyres.  Fair enough.  I still maintain that spending your $2.5k on a $500 car and adding $2000 tryes to it is a dumb idea.

I think your analogy is fine!

People are just pointing out some differences to be aware of. If you have 2500 dollars to spend, then unless you got a very good car at a very low price, you should in indeed invest that money in making sure that car is even safe to drive...

 

[mulder01]

Thanks for the support Yeah, look, I appreciate that someone could go out and buy a second hand V8 paddock basher with shot tyres and improve their race time around a track with a tyre upgrade. I was thinking more from my own personal history where the first car I bought was a 1978 Toyota Corolla which cost about $500. It had so little power that from a standing start, on a GRAVEL ROAD, I could floor the accelerator and it would take off normally without any wheel spinnage. I think the engine would have had possibly single digits worth of horsepower left. In my case better tryes would not have helped me get off the mark. Then people went and poked holes in my story and now I'm paying for it.

 

[terry parr]

headphone marketing is changing.  but the older, respected, and venerable manufacturers seem to be taking marketing and advertising cues from inferior-sounding headphone makers!   
 
 Orestes1984 just touched on the current marketing on post #439. 
 
 I popped on the AKG website recently to have a look around, and the headphone section of their site looks like advertising copy that would look at home in the pages of COSMOPOLITAN magazine. (a magazine aimed at 20-year-old young women).  I really don't know what the "target demographic" of that magazine is, but that sounds about right.  college sophomores. 
 
"Courtney" wants a headphone that plugs into her phone, that are lightweight and doesn't slide around on her head while she's working out. 
 
what do the headphones sound like, Courtney?
 
"oh, they're great!  you can almost feel the bass!"     
 
 
 
 
nothing wrong with the above scenario.  I say let Courtney enjoy her headphones.   but, what I see happening here is the big headphone makers concentrating more on this market, and pretty much letting the mid-tier, ("buick" models of the headphone industry, if you will) begin to slide.  pretty soon, the choices that people will have among the mid-level offerings (truly good phones, but priced reasonably) will begin to shrink. 
 
and, if you want truly good sounding phones, (which will sound noticeably better than entry-level),  then be prepared to pay a premium.      
 
 
 
to me, I think the new marketing "tarnishes" the well-established brands, and leads people who have been in the headphone listening hobby for some time, to begin to take the brand less seriously.
 
although I don't think the older manufacturers are worried too much about what their older customers think.  they're after the younger market.  and, if the new marketing approach moves product (maybe an inferior product than what they were once known for), but if it makes that companies' bottom line look better, then, hey.  it's successful. 

 

[terry parr]

excuse me, guys.  didn't mean to interrupt the discussion about car tires.  the subject matter changes quickly around here, sometimes, in these threads.
 
now my comment on headphone marketing sounds like a rude "butt-in" and completely out of context!
 
 
 
so what does everybody think the best high-performance road tire is?  

 

[U-3C]

headphone marketing is changing.  but the older, respected, and venerable manufacturers seem to be taking marketing and advertising cues from inferior-sounding headphone makers!   

 Orestes1984 just touched on the current marketing on post #439. 

 I popped on the AKG website recently to have a look around, and the headphone section of their site looks like advertising copy that would look at home in the pages of COSMOPOLITAN magazine. (a magazine aimed at 20-year-old young women).  I really don't know what the "target demographic" of that magazine is, but that sounds about right.  college sophomores. 

"Courtney" wants a headphone that plugs into her phone, that are lightweight and doesn't slide around on her head while she's working out. 

what do the headphones sound like, Courtney?

"oh, they're great!  you can almost feel the bass!"     




nothing wrong with the above scenario.  I say let Courtney enjoy her headphones.   but, what I see happening here is the big headphone makers concentrating more on this market, and pretty much letting the mid-tier, ("buick" models of the headphone industry, if you will) begin to slide.  pretty soon, the choices that people will have among the mid-level offerings (truly good phones, but priced reasonably) will begin to shrink. 

and, if you want truly good sounding phones, (which will sound noticeably better than entry-level),  then be prepared to pay a premium.      



to me, I think the new marketing "tarnishes" the well-established brands, and leads people who have been in the headphone listening hobby for some time, to begin to take the brand less seriously.

although I don't think the older manufacturers are worried too much about what their older customers think.  they're after the younger market.  and, if the new marketing approach moves product (maybe an inferior product than what they were once known for), but if it makes that companies' bottom line look better, then, hey.  it's successful. 

Welp, that's the "Beats Factor" that Sean Olive from AKG talked about. It doesn't seem to be what humans really like in general, but thanks to the success of companies like Beats, people think they want it, so they will buy it and judge headphones by the bass quantity. Whenever I walk into Best Buy, I see countless headphones by reputable brands. However, every product has the word "bass" labelled large on the packaging. Funny. Some of them has been reviewed as "lacking bass."

Hey, if it sells, companies will provide it.

 

[cel4145]

nothing wrong with the above scenario.  I say let Courtney enjoy her headphones.   but, what I see happening here is the big headphone makers concentrating more on this market, and pretty much letting the mid-tier, ("buick" models of the headphone industry, if you will) begin to slide.  pretty soon, the choices that people will have among the mid-level offerings (truly good phones, but priced reasonably) will begin to shrink. 

Yeah, but we now have a ton of people that started out a few years ago with iPhones with stock earbuds that have pretty good sound, or Beats people too, that may be ready to take the next step to something better. Happens all the time on the intro forum here. The more people that get exposed to headphones and use them constantly, the more of them "grow up" as listeners and want better sound. And they have aged, too, so they often have more disposable income.

 

[evanatch]

I joined head-fi six years ago, but I tend to only come by for a few weeks every 2-3 years when I decide I want to buy new headphones. This time, it feels a bit different. 90% of the content on the main discussion forums is in megathreads for every different product, and 90% of the content of those threads is people congratulating each other on what great purchases they've made. The first page of the thread will be filled with glowing reviews, usually comparing the headphone favorably to the HD800, whether it costs $200 or $4000. It seems that the forum overall has seen a push towards serving those who see buying gear as a hobby, probably because those are the most profitable targets for ads. Newcomers are pushed to the recommendations forum, which sees less traffic, and critical discussion seems to have been pushed here. Overall, it feels harder to determine which reviews represent the gear genuinely, especially when some reviewers shower everything they get for free with adulation. Maybe I didn't notice it before, but head-fi definitely seems to have become more commercialized over time, and headphone manufacturers now seem acutely aware that this is where opinions about their products are formed and spread.

 

[sxr71]

I wanted to post this morning but work got in the way! Forgive me if its a little out of context now.
Of course there are charlatans and hucksters in audio.
I do believe however that there are designers and engineers who are genuinely involved in trying to push forward what is possible within their field.
I wonder how these genuine electrical engineers compensate for placebo etc.
I asked Rob Ward in the Chord Mojo thread and he gave me a very intelligent reply.
He is very active in that thread and comes across as completely sincere. Still can't hear the "improvements" it is claimed the Mojo gives though!
The post earlier by sxr71 is rather bitter . He raises some valid points but I would point out a minor point.
AK is a reinvention of iRiver who do have a pedigree in audio.
As to the much maligned Beats. I quite envy people using them. They have a product that they think looks cool. ( I quite like the look too.)
They look fairly well made and possibly suit the music being played.
The wearer usually looks pretty happy and probably isn't fretting about SQ!
Whoever originally came up with the concept was a marketing genius.
Headphones were not mainstream before Beats IIRC. They have created a product with millions of satisfied customers. What's not to admire?
I realised that all was not as it appears in audio quite quickly. I guess I have Russ Andrews to thank for that!
I met him at a show. Nice guy. Appears totally sincere. His products are a load of bollo as far as I am concerned though!
It certainly suits my world view and circumstances if it is not necessary to spend large sums on equipment to get high quality sound.
I don't think that materialism is the way forward and I do not have a lot of disposable income.
It will be very interesting to attend CanJam London in the context of this thread.
If it turns out that an iPhone is all I need to get the best out of my CIEMS then I will celebrate the fact that mainstream electronics have moved forward to the point where pricey DAP's are obsolete.
I am attending with an open mind but my BS meter (analog of course!) turned up to 11!

You're right it was quite bitter and it was taken down to give me time to make it less offensive but keep the basic points. I haven't gotten around to it.

I think where the bitterness comes from is that after dropping thousands on this stuff I decided to stay away for years and got sucked back in like an idiot. The bitterness comes from anger at myself for allowing myself to get suckered again. I came to a point where I realized how much fluff and opinion is on the boards. Then when every tom, dick and Harry got involved I knew I had to be out. I mean that in terms of manufacturers and to a degree posters.

I don't have a problem with marketers. Beats mainstreamed our hobby and all of a sudden everyone wants $300 for a headphone. The average consumer used to think that was Bose money and now they can choose to spend that at any one of 50 vendors for a headphone. It also got really upsetting that even reputable vendors (AKG and Sennheiser) got into the Beats style business of limited editions, different colors that cost more. It took what was a technical business and made it a fashion business. All the little tiny variations for extra money and no sound difference was getting too much. It became a field for fashionistas and not for technical, scientific people.

Also my experience with a lot of (now) reputable brands in portable audio was that stuff was breaking. I don't want to name any brands but some of the early products from some of these names were faulty. I have a desk drawer of broken or faulty amps. You might want to ask why I didn't send them back. I know it sounds cliche but really I don't have time for this run around of sending stuff back and waiting on repairs. I really don't want to list names. For one of them I found a local service center with very prompt support from the manufacturer and it's been 8 months and no response from the service center. I've moved away from the area and given up on that item. I know even the best companies have products that fail but the number in this business is very high. It's too high given the pricing. You can tell everything is made to be disposable and for you to buy the next one.

Again I'm not bitter about money spent that's like crying about split milk. I don't have time for that. But this time walking into an Apple Store trying to get my glass fixed I got sucked in. It was amazing. Built in dac/amp in the cable. Planar dynamic for portable. My latent portable audiofool was awakened.

Again I failed. Sucked in like a pleb consumer moron. It sounds pretty good. The planar aspect checks a geek box for me. The built in dac/amp is pure geek candy. But the thing snapped like cheap bamboo chopstick.

I've posted pictures of it. And it upsets me quite a bit that white knight types want to post about how they supposedly throw them around and sleep on them, step on them etc. The picture is crystal clear about how darn thin the connection is. It's maybe suitable for a home headphone at best. I mean at best. The connection is 2.5mm of hollow swiveling metal. You have to be kidding me. It is nowhere near where it needs to be for putting in a travel bag at all.

Where the additional bitterness comes from is how much these fanboys will make excuses for their brand. The picture is clear that the thickness of the connection is inadequate. But that basic science is out the door in favor of "I did blah blah to mine and they didn't break". Another person also had this happen and yet nobody apparently read that.

I think people are extremely biased towards their brands and products. They cannot be bothered to see basic reason. Just because your pair didn't break after your dog/gf whatever slept on them means nothing.

I suppose the same could be said of me. But I have the pictures of the connection and even a lay man would be able to figure out that isn't strong enough for a travel phone. Yet everybody keeps singing the praises and some day we should work out over time if it is defective design. Again I don't have time for this. I know the history of this and other companies in this space. First they try to sweep it under the rug. Then they deny. Then maybe they'll issue a campaign. This industry and the people at head fi make it acceptable for poor design and experimental products to reach the shelves. I don't want to name names but you know the names.

People here make allowances for crap nobody would put up with anywhere else.

I used to be a student. I used to have time to deal with cutting edge unfinished half baked stuff. It was cool. I just don't have time for it anymore. I'm also upset that buying stuff at an Apple Store gives you only 14 days to return and I still doubt they would take a broken product back. So I feel ripped off. I would love to unwind this deal. I made a mistake at the Apple Store and I wish I never got back into this. I should have done my research and gotten those Sony IEMs. $80 I don't care if I lose them. They sound amazing. In an aircraft cabin you can't get better than 30-40dB s/n ratio either. But really to me they have the detail of the ER4s with some real bass. They are perfect for me.


PS Also sorry I don't think iRiver counts as anything. They are a known 3rd tier manufacturer that reinvented itself with a hipster name and now charges $4k for a portable player. That people will buy it just speaks volumes.

 

[cel4145]

But this time walking into an Apple Store trying to get my glass fixed I got sucked in.

The Apple Store. Always feels like some strange cult where all of the sales people walk and talk the same and act like they are on Prozac or something. LOL

Time for you to go Android and join the dark side of the force

 

[sxr71]

The Apple Store. Always feels like some strange cult where all of the sales people walk and talk the same and act like they are on Prozac or something. LOL

Time for you to go Android and join the dark side of the force

I was an early adopter so I'm stuck on this Apple ecosystem. Also I do believe that Apple is more likely to preserve user privacy than Google. But yeah Apple stuff is typically overrated. I'll tell you iOS has become a buggy POS of late. Pretty bad. I use Mac also but IMHO Windows 10 blows it out of the water. Plus all the amazing laptops in the Windows world. Lighter, thinner, faster, more functional.

 

[Dillan]

I so much agree with the last few posts in the thread.

 

[cel4145]

Also I do believe that Apple is more likely to preserve user privacy than Google.

You mean like like tracking their users every move, even though users may not realize it? LOL

 

[pureangus62]

I think people are extremely biased towards their brands and products. They cannot be bothered to see basic reason. 

 
This line stood out to me the most. Just because so-and-so made it it's by default flawless and cannot be talked down upon without attack. Also, regardless of build quality, spec, etc its GREAT! (and pricey)

 

[sxr71]

I joined head-fi six years ago, but I tend to only come by for a few weeks every 2-3 years when I decide I want to buy new headphones. This time, it feels a bit different. 90% of the content on the main discussion forums is in megathreads for every different product, and 90% of the content of those threads is people congratulating each other on what great purchases they've made. The first page of the thread will be filled with glowing reviews, usually comparing the headphone favorably to the HD800, whether it costs $200 or $4000. It seems that the forum overall has seen a push towards serving those who see buying gear as a hobby, probably because those are the most profitable targets for ads. Newcomers are pushed to the recommendations forum, which sees less traffic, and critical discussion seems to have been pushed here. Overall, it feels harder to determine which reviews represent the gear genuinely, especially when some reviewers shower everything they get for free with adulation. Maybe I didn't notice it before, but head-fi definitely seems to have become more commercialized over time, and headphone manufacturers now seem acutely aware that this is where opinions about their products are formed and spread.

This is the number one mistake I made. When researching headphones by habit I check Head-Fi. All you will get no matter what the product is "buy it, buy it, but it, best thing I ever heard, you'd be missing out without it, make sure you get an amp that is up to the level of those phones, buy it.

Standard response to dissenting opinions: your source sucks, your amp is weak, you haven't spent enough on your stuff that you would like the whole shebang with a Stockholm syndrome like fervor. After you drop that kind of cash you're going to like it period. So the solution is to spend enough that you will have to like it.

It's not Head-Fi's fault that this industry got commercialized. It was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time. I remember buying homemade Xin Feng amps. Those were great for what they were. He could have barely profited off those if at all.

Then the iPhone came out. Everybody had an MP3 player. Then Beats came in to cash in on it. But even the good traditional manufacturers went astray. Rerelasing product. Making special editions with cosmetic features. Releasing problems items and reiterating with +1 or +5 added to the model number within a year. Got Shure SE530? It's crap now. You need SE535. Got K701? Total garbage. You need K702. We fixed the crappy parts. It became a clear money grab IMHO. We're talking about top notch legitimate headphone brands here.

Also there used to be niches. Shure did microphones and IEMs. It made sense for their clients. Sennheiser did headphones it's what their clients needed. Now it's a free for all. Shure making headphones, Sennheiser making IEMs. I'm not saying they don't have the right to. But for companies that spend years developing products and releasing product every 5-10 years a barrage of stuff came out really fast. You have to think these are just released to capture dollars. Talk to Chinese OEM and put your logo on it and crank it out.

Again I don't have time to deal with upstart type products. I'm used to buying from firms that have a track record in the industry they make products in. I know it's narrow minded to block out a product just for that reason but you have to realize at some point the same engineers the company is known for had nothing to do with what's coming out now.

People certainly are clueless. If you drive a Porsche SUV is that really a Porsche? It's a Volkswagen with a Porsche badge. Come on since when were they known for making SUVs? Seriously.