[pctazhp]

My experience in helping hundreds of people on the newbie forums it that many are, indeed, fairly new to audio. I would guess that for at least half, the age range is somewhere from 16 to 23. Most don't have the experience you describe, and they are very easily persuaded by outside factors other than the actual performance of the audio. Note I don't wish to imply that all in the 16 to 23 age group are that way. But a very large majority probably are.
And that is the core tenant behind subjectivism.

Are you seriously suggesting that if I audition a new component in my system for at least two week and find that I am really enjoying it and I can afford it, that if someone else tells me that I have made a stupid choice that is not supported by objective, scientific principles, I should immediately return it and wait for someone who can tell me what I should be using from a scientific basis?
 
Please do not lecture me on the validity of DBT or expectation bias. I accept the basic tenants. But I refuse to deprive myself of an enjoyable experience because I can't establish that my experience is scientifically valid.

 

[cel4145]

Are you seriously suggesting . . .

I'm not suggesting anything. I am quite clearly pointing out that the primary principle of audio subjectivism is that personal experience trumps everything else. Your beliefs and what you choose to do are up to you. But a rose is still a rose by any other name.

 

[RRod]

The issue is *what* you decide to audition and *how* you audition it. Take my HD800 + Fulla example. Would a given audiophile who wants to try the HD800 bother to even audition the Fulla? If they did, would they give it a fair shake or just go "nope" after 2 seconds because it isn't "TOTL"? And how would the little device end up fairing in the review they write? If not-well, then how many people have been driven away from a potentially cheap and excellent solution? How many of those decide not even to bother with the headphones now?

 

[U-3C]

The issue is *what* you decide to audition and *how* you audition it. Take my HD800 + Fulla example. Would a given audiophile who wants to try the HD800 bother to even audition the Fulla? If they did, would they give it a fair shake or just go "nope" after 2 seconds because it isn't "TOTL"? And how would the little device end up fairing in the review they write? If not-well, then how many people have been driven away from a potentially cheap and excellent solution? How many of those decide not even to bother with the headphones now?

Well, multiple people claim that the small DACport Slim is great for driving the HD800. So for 20 dollars more than the Fulla, you can get a setup that a few people have claimed to work well! Not sure how much 20 dollars will influence these people's judgments though.

 

[pctazhp]

  The issue is *what* you decide to audition and *how* you audition it. Take my HD800 + Fulla example. Would a given audiophile who wants to try the HD800 bother to even audition the Fulla? If they did, would they give it a fair shake or just go "nope" after 2 seconds because it isn't "TOTL"? And how would the little device end up fairing in the review they write? If not-well, then how many people have been driven away from a potentially cheap and excellent solution? How many of those decide not even to bother with the headphones now?

I set forth a list of 7 pieces of advice. Focus was placed on only 1 of the 7 on that list. The list was just an attempt to come up with some useful advice for newcomers. I claim no pride of authorship and am open to other approaches. What would you suggest to solve the problem you describe?

 

[RRod]

  I set forth a list of 7 pieces of advice. Focus was placed on only 1 of the 7 on that list. The list was just an attempt to come up with some useful advice for newcomers. I claim no pride of authorship and am open to other approaches. What would you suggest to solve the problem you describe?

 
I agree with most of the list, but what cel mentioned really gets to the heart of the matter of "how can prices be too darn high"? What needs to happen is that the community should embrace posters/reviewers who do in fact aim for some objectivity in their assessments. Just saying "this setup was warm" isn't as helpful as "I noticed a perceived warmth in the bass and sure enough measurements show higher THD below 100Hz." Saying "this amp sounded fine but not as good as my TOTL setup" isn't as useful as "in a blind, volume-matched comparison I could not differentiate these two amps." Yet what often gets credit is flowery language and adherence to societal norms, the kind of norms that promote equipment that costs too much for what it's supposed to be doing.

 

[krismusic]

Yeah. I'm sure I'm getting those same looks at my posts from other members when I tell people that their flagship smartphone measures very well with an amp and that they should just get the Fiio A3 instead of an Oppo HA-2 and save their money for something else. But you know a lot of these kids think they have to have a portable dac/amp because that's what someone told them.

Side note: I think USB dac/amps are a poor choice in that situation anyway because you can't charge your phone and listen to your music at the same time. Hey, but never let practicality of chasing that SQ that might not even be there. :rolleyes:

I think it is worth bearing in mind that new technologies often offer many new experiences but probably at the expense of attributes of the previous technology.
It may well be that a vinyl based system would be more enjoyable than my smartphone and CIEM's.
That is not appropriate to how I enjoy listening to music at this time. On the move. Commuting between jobs.
I cannot beat the joy of plugging my headphones into a device that I already have to carry around with me and listen to an almost endless library of music on Tidal.
When I retire and spend more time at home this may change.
In the meantime trying to get digital to ape the characteristics of analoge leads to the nonsense of carrying a "stack" around ( been there done that!) which is a PITA to carry around and in reality is never going to sound like a Linn Sondek into a pair of electrostatic speakers.
Having said that, my ridiculously expensive CIEM's sound amazing from an iPhone but accepting realistic limitations to what is possible in this context will save me a lot of money, time and effort chasing rainbows.
I eagerly await the opportunity to hear stuff at CanJam London that may prove me wrong.
I will definitely have my BS detector turned up to max and will report back here.

 

[cel4145]

Well, I decided to make an alternative list. The one that says things I'd like to say, but won't

1) There are many excellent amps/dacs available for a few hundred dollars and less that are distortion free. Spending more money won't get you more sound quality, but it does make the audio vendors wallets heavier.

2) Buying a new amp for better synergy with your headphones makes about as much sense as buying a new oven because you don't like how the pizza you cooked tastes. Try cooking a different pizza instead.

3) Any recommendation for audio equipment that includes the phrase "the best in the world" or "the best ever" should be discounted about as quickly as the guy who emails you asking for help to transfer $200,000 from Nigeria.

4) Just because twenty other people in the thread followed the initial positive review for a new product off a cliff with their wallet doesn't mean you need to.

5) You don't need to repeatedly buy $300 exotic cables to find the perfect sound. One pair will do when you decide to hang yourself later after realizing how much money you wasted.

6) People that record headphone (and speaker) demos for perspective buyers should never be allowed to review audio equipment again. Especially those that use their own home made contraptions to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo2xDhu7JK8

7) Audio science is not trying to attack your precious infallible ego. But since you apparently don't realize it, audio science can save a fool from being parted from his money.

 

[pctazhp]

Well, I decided to make an alternative list. The one that says things I'd like to say, but won't

1) There are many excellent amps/dacs available for a few hundred dollars and less that are distortion free. Spending more money won't get you more sound quality, but it does make the audio vendors wallets heavier.

2) Buying a new amp for better synergy with your headphones makes about as much sense as buying a new oven because you don't like how the pizza you cooked tastes. Try cooking a different pizza instead.

3) Any recommendation for audio equipment that includes the phrase "the best in the world" or "the best ever" should be discounted about as quickly as the guy who emails you asking for help to transfer $200,000 from Nigeria.

4) Just because twenty other people in the thread followed the initial positive review for a new product off a cliff with their wallet doesn't mean you need to.

5) You don't need to repeatedly buy $300 exotic cables to find the perfect sound. One pair will do when you decide to hang yourself later after realizing how much money you wasted.

6) People that record headphone (and speaker) demos for perspective buyers should never be allowed to review audio equipment again. Especially those that use their own home made contraptions to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo2xDhu7JK8

7) Audio science is not trying to attack your precious infallible ego. But since you apparently don't realize it, audio science can save a fool from being parted from his money.

You list simply demonstrates how dogmatic, offensive, off-setting and unscientific many "objectivists" can be. No 1 is a blanket statement of fact without any back up.
 
It also demonstrates why it is pointless to try to engage in a reasonable discussion of this subject.

 

[musikevan]

This short video will put things in perspective...
https://vimeo.com/25761812

 

[reginalb]

Well, multiple people claim that the small DACport Slim is great for driving the HD800. So for 20 dollars more than the Fulla, you can get a setup that a few people have claimed to work well! Not sure how much 20 dollars will influence these people's judgments though.

 
Wasn't the slim Massdrop exclusive? The DACport is typically $200, vs $79 for the Fulla. And I have it on good authority that he got his for less than that. The Fulla is a great little piece of kit. 

  You list simply demonstrates how dogmatic, offensive, off-setting and unscientific many "objectivists" can be. No 1 is a blanket statement of fact without any back up.
 
It also demonstrates why it is pointless to try to engage in a reasonable discussion of this subject.

 
How in the world is it offensive? It's also true. But even if you disagree, I don't see how you can see it as offensive. 
 
There is a lot of backup, too. Backup is stickied. 

 

[U-3C]

   
Wasn't the slim Massdrop exclusive? The DACport is typically $200, vs $79 for the Fulla. And I have it on good authority that he got his for less than that. The Fulla is a great little piece of kit. 
 

Yes, it is an exclusive. However, just wait a few days and it will be back! It's getting dropped so often~
 
The DACport HD is quite a bit more powerful than the Slim and was never meant to really compete with the Fulla. However, the reviews I mentioned about were all about the $99 DACport Slim with the HD800. Feels good even though I still don't think it's better than my onboard audio with my current headphones. 0_0;
 

 Originally Posted by reginalb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
How in the world is it offensive? It's also true. But even if you disagree, I don't see how you can see it as offensive. 

 
To be honest, I find it a bit offensive...

 
Reading the list, I get the feeling that the audience may feel like they are labeled as being stupid or brushed to the side. I want to make it clear that I don't hold anything personal against you, nor am I trying to attack you. I can understand why you are frustrated with such things and may see them as being dumb. Based on the list, I think you tried to express it in a way that seems to be simple and straight forward for others to understand, but for a person that is from the other side of the debate, they may see your post and feel equally as frustrated. Just as how you may see the choices of those opposing you as idiotic, they may see your advice as being very blunt and over-simplified as well.
 
The part about the cable used to hang the reader really hurt me. If they were in a case like me where they are just getting into the hobby, ignorant of how things work and are doing research on a site that is filled with marketing designed to get them to pay for stuff, they are easily fooled and pulled into the rabbit hole, especially with something like audio where the boarders between science and pseudoscience is so hard to spot at times unless you have previous experience with audio, or in the case of the SS forum, probably have previous training regarding sound science.
 
The Sound Science subforum is pretty dead. Not a lot of people visit here compared to the other places. If somebody really is just starting out, they will probably not look here when they seek help. Where ever they go, they probably will get help from passionate people with good intentions and they will appreciate it. They might follow the advice and spend their money, and they might end up being very happy, whether they got the best value for their money or they simply wasted the majority of their budget on marketing gimmecks. If they are on the extreme end and have bought premium audio cables, whether they are happy or if they are upset (like me) because they realized that it doesn't make that much of a difference, especially knowing the price paid for them, and go around spreading the word/searching for an answer to their confusion, it really hurts when somebody comes up and bluntly tells them that the only expensive cable they need in their case is the one used to hang themselves.
 
I know I'm still searching for an answer to my questions because I feel heavily lied to, and reading that list really hurt. I understand that your intentions are good and that you are trying to prevent people like me from making poor choices that they may regret. If I understood correctly, you are probably frustrated with the issues raised in this thread? I don't hold anything against you, but I can see why the list can really hurt someone and be taken as a personal attack.

 
Take care.

 

[reginalb]

  Yes, it is an exclusive. However, just wait a few days and it will be back! It's getting dropped so often~
 
The DACport HD is quite a bit more powerful than the Slim and was never meant to really compete with the Fulla. However, the reviews I mentioned about were all about the $99 DACport Slim with the HD800. Feels good even though I still don't think it's better than my onboard audio with my current headphones. 0_0;
 
 
To be honest, I find it a bit offensive...

 
Reading the list, I get the feeling that the audience may feel like they are labeled as being stupid or brushed to the side. I want to make it clear that I don't hold anything personal against you, nor am I trying to attack you. I can understand why you are frustrated with such things and may see them as being dumb. Based on the list, I think you tried to express it in a way that seems to be simple and straight forward for others to understand, but for a person that is from the other side of the debate, they may see your post and feel equally as frustrated. Just as how you may see the choices of those opposing you as idiotic, they may see your advice as being very blunt and over-simplified as well.
 
The part about the cable used to hang the reader really hurt me. If they were in a case like me where they are just getting into the hobby, ignorant of how things work and are doing research on a site that is filled with marketing designed to get them to pay for stuff, they are easily fooled and pulled into the rabbit hole, especially with something like audio where the boarders between science and pseudoscience is so hard to spot at times unless you have previous experience with audio, or in the case of the SS forum, probably have previous training regarding sound science.
 
The Sound Science subforum is pretty dead. Not a lot of people visit here compared to the other places. If somebody really is just starting out, they will probably not look here when they seek help. Where ever they go, they probably will get help from passionate people with good intentions and they will appreciate it. They might follow the advice and spend their money, and they might end up being very happy, whether they got the best value for their money or they simply wasted the majority of their budget on marketing gimmecks. If they are on the extreme end and have bought premium audio cables, whether they are happy or if they are upset (like me) because they realized that it doesn't make that much of a difference, especially knowing the price paid for them, and go around spreading the word/searching for an answer to their confusion, it really hurts when somebody comes up and bluntly tells them that the only expensive cable they need in their case is the one used to hang themselves.
 
I know I'm still searching for an answer to my questions because I feel heavily lied to, and reading that list really hurt. I understand that your intentions are good and that you are trying to prevent people like me from making poor choices that they may regret. If I understood correctly, you are probably frustrated with the issues raised in this thread? I don't hold anything against you, but I can see why the list can really hurt someone and be taken as a personal attack.

 
Take care.

 
I didn't make the list, but they are clearly just a tongue in cheek satire of an earlier list in the thread. Don't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive! 
 
I wouldn't use that list in a search for truth or anything. Many of us, myself included, bought stuff we probably shouldn't have in this hobby. 

 

[U-3C]

   
I didn't make the list, but they are clearly just a tongue in cheek satire of an earlier list in the thread. Don't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive! 
 
I wouldn't use that list in a search for truth or anything. Many of us, myself included, bought stuff we probably shouldn't have in this hobby. 

 
Woops, got you confused with cel4145!
 
*Runs off to hang myself with the 20 feet cable from AKG Q701. ;v;*
 
Th...thanks AKG for your insanely long cable. It has finally come to use. 0_0;

 

[cel4145]

I didn't make the list, but they are clearly just a tongue in cheek satire of an earlier list in the thread. Don't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive! 

I wouldn't use that list in a search for truth or anything. Many of us, myself included, bought stuff we probably shouldn't have in this hobby. 

Yep. Some were supposed to be over the top and are a play on different things that commonly happen.

But (1) shouldn't be offensive to anyone. I would guess that most of the objectivists in the sound science forum believe that to be true, that (a) there are accurate dacs and amps to be had, which definitely leads to (b) the idea that buying more expensive stuff only helps the audio companies, not the consumer. If you grant (a), then (b) is a logical conclusion. If you don't agree with (a), then (b) shouldn't bother you.