[selfdivider]

In my other thread asking for help picking a DAP, someone had mentioned Rio Karma as a possibility. I've been reading a LOT of fantastic reports on this player, but I can't help but be skeptical a bit. Can this old player really sound better than these newer players? (Deep inside, I'm hoping that the answer is yes.)

I'll be using very high-impedance headphones: Sennheiser PXC-450, which is rated at 150/750 ohms. Currently, I'm using it with iPod 4G, a miserable miserable piece of crap DAP (that fuzz on the piano & vocals!) The volume is surprisingly fine enough that I don't use portable amp w/ the Senns.

Can Rio Karma handle these Senns? How would you compare Rio Karma's sound to some of the players I've been hearing about, such as models from Sony or Cowon? I'm not necessarily looking for "X is better than Y," but the sound characteristics in terms of warmth, clarity, bass/mid/treble response, etc. Thanks, guys.

 

[-=Germania=-]

Good player, but more hype than reality! There are equally capable and cheaper players out there. Look at the SONY ND-5.

 

[scompton]

Amps aren't just about volume. An iPod can't drive a 150 ohm headphone without it sounding like crap. There are probably very few DAPs that can. My Rio Cali can't. What ever you get, make sure it has a line out so you can eventually get an amp.

Edit: I can get decent volume out of any of my headphones with my iPod. This includes my AKG K240 Sextetts that are 600 ohm and my Fostex T30 Orthodynamic which don't have a high impedance but need a lot of current to drive them. The volume is high enough but they cause the iPod to clip like mad. With the Fostex the sound is loud but not recognizable.

 

[craiglester]

The Karma has the best amp I've heard on a portable player. No, I haven't heard them all, before someone mentions that.
The interface is pretty good, I prefer it to the standard Ipod interface, and it plays Flac files natively and MP3s gaplessly, which for it's time was almost unheard of, as was the parametric EQ.
For it's time, it was a great player. It still is a good player, but it's not for everyone, and the size could be an issue for some, it's thick. Really thick.

Some early ones had HDD issues, but that was all fixed with a firmware update.
If you don't mind the size (and it's slightly slow interface when you're browsing lots of flacs), and you can get one for a reasonable price ($50 to $80 would seem reasonable - it is only 20GB after all ), I'd say get one.

 

[selfdivider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amps aren't just about volume. An iPod can't drive a 150 ohm headphone without it sounding like crap. There are probably very few DAPs that can. My Rio Cali can't. What ever you get, make sure it has a line out so you can eventually get an amp. Edit: I can get decent volume out of any of my headphones with my iPod. This includes my AKG K240 Sextetts that are 600 ohm and my Fostex T30 Orthodynamic which don't have a high impedance but need a lot of current to drive them. The volume is high enough but they cause the iPod to clip like mad. With the Fostex the sound is loud but not recognizable.

Thanks for the advice, scompton. I know amps are not just about volume. My home system is pretty high end, and in setting up, I've had a lot of practice matching amplifiers w/ speakers, so I know what the inherent issues are. But volume IS a factor. My Plinius 8150, which is a 150 wpc solid state, will drive my Harbeths to higher volumes with much less effort & at lower dial setting than my Leben CS600 (32 wpc push-pull tube). I prefer the Leben's SQ, but that's a different story...

I actually decided to use Sennheiser PXC-450 w/o amp first on my iPod when one of the respected members here said it should be okay, although amping might be better. And volume-wise, SQ-wise, they sound pretty damn good, he was right on the money. Never clips. I am positive that the SQ would get even better with a portable amp, but I'd rather keep the good enough SQ + portability than the enhanced SQ + bulkiness, as I do most of the critical listening at home anyways, either through the Harbeths or AKG-701s. But Senn PXC-450s unamped on the iPod are pretty impressive... I was a skeptic, too, thought the sound would be sheer crap.

That said, I hate the 4G iPods & am looking for a DAP that has a quality amp built in... craiglester: when you say that the Karma has the "best amp" you've heard, what do you mean? Are you talking in terms of power?

 

[chesterqw]

you need to learn that amps are not for increasing power output in the audio world first...

 

[TheMarchingMule]

Quote:

Originally Posted by selfdivider /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the advice, scompton. I know amps are not just about volume. My home system is pretty high end, and in setting up, I've had a lot of practice matching amplifiers w/ speakers, so I know what the inherent issues are. But volume IS a factor. My Plinius 8150, which is a 150 wpc solid state, will drive my Harbeths to higher volumes with much less effort & at lower dial setting than my Leben CS600 (32 wpc push-pull tube). I prefer the Leben's SQ, but that's a different story... I actually decided to use Sennheiser PXC-450 w/o amp first on my iPod when one of the respected members here said it should be okay, although amping might be better. And volume-wise, SQ-wise, they sound pretty damn good, he was right on the money. Never clips. I am positive that the SQ would get even better with a portable amp, but I'd rather keep the good enough SQ + portability than the enhanced SQ + bulkiness, as I do most of the critical listening at home anyways, either through the Harbeths or AKG-701s. But Senn PXC-450s unamped on the iPod are pretty impressive... I was a skeptic, too, thought the sound would be sheer crap. That said, I hate the 4G iPods & am looking for a DAP that has a quality amp built in... craiglester: when you say that the Karma has the "best amp" you've heard, what do you mean? Are you talking in terms of power?

Argh, no no no! Like scompton said, amps aren't just about making it louder. That's the obvious part; the other aspect that is widely over-looked is what also amps bring to the tale in terms of quality control over what is being fed into them.

 

[selfdivider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMarchingMule /img/forum/go_quote.gif Argh, no no no! Like scompton said, amps aren't just about making it louder. That's the obvious part; the other aspect that is widely over-looked is what also amps bring to the tale in terms of quality control over what is being fed into them.

Okay, guys. I think our signals are getting crossed! When I say power, I'm not saying "making it louder" Arrghhh!! If you read my post again, you'll see that I know how amps work. I also wrote that I have no problem w/ volume even on my crappy iPod, so loudness is not even an issue! There's admittedly a volume difference between amps w/ different outputs (as I demonstrated w/ two VERY different amps I have): it's dumb to think of amps as volume-increasing devices, but it's equally dumb to not acknowledge that with the increase in power, the capacity for volume also increases. Which is why I wrote about my 2 amps as examples.

But more importantly, it's about musical authority. That's what I mean by power: musical authority, PRaT, no sign of strain in louder/faster passages of music. And certain amps deliver that power, certain amps don't. And we're not talking about some sophisticated SET amps here, we're talking about amps inside DAPs... not even portable amps! So there must be some kind of a correlation between a certain amp's output and how it delivers power (i.e. musical authority NOT bang bang loudness.) That's what I want to know. Is this how the Rio Karma's amp is "the best" according to some people? I hope we're on the same level.

Chester - If I didn't understand that amps are not for increasing power output in audio world, then my primary home amp wouldn't be a push-pull tube amp that barely puts out 30 wpc, now, would it? I know you mean to help & you must be knowledgeable about audio, but please think before you start telling people didactically what they "need" to understand.

 

[montell]

I've got the yuin pk1 and the pk3. The pk1 is 150 ohm and the pk3 is I think 10 ohm or something. I use them with my ipod nano and my iaudio x5. Let me tell you something

They sound almost exactly the same. The only difference is that I need to use a higher volume with the pk1 to get the same amount of decibels out of them compared to the pk3.

 

[scompton]

Quote:

(that fuzz on the piano & vocals!)

I was responding to this in your OP. Some of that should go away with a line out and amp, especially with 150 ohm headphones. A lot of the advice here about will a headphone work with an amp/PDP is strictly on volume. The poster may say SQ works as well, and it may for them, but won't for most people here.

I only listen to my iPod in noisy environments or when I'm doing stuff that take my attention away from the music, so the SQ isn't the most important thing for me. But I still stick with portable headphones with the iPod. I'd use an amp if I wanted to use my AKG K500 (around 150 ohms)

 

[FoleyF]

Hello-

I have both the Rio Karma and the Sony A818. They are both great players but each have their own benefits.....Let me lay out a few:

Rio Karma

Pluses

1. GREAT Sound Quality
2. Ability to play variety of formats
3. Great Software
4. Great shuffle capabilities
5. Great EQ settings

Minuses

1. They are not sold any more (unless you find old stock)
2. Most of them have died
3. No Color screen (can't load album art)
4. Not compatible with Napster (if you like downloading unlimited songs for $15 a month)
5. Can't load pictures or video

Bottom line with the Karma - It's easy to use and sounds great....not flashy but the sound quality is the best. The software is really a joy to use. With my Sony I use Windows Media Player and Napster. Windows Media Player is a pain to use and has a somewhat steep learning curve. With the Rio software, you just point to the folders you want sync'd and your player is loaded - A little more difficult with WMP.

The Sony is awesome as well - May not sound quite as good as the Karma, but it holds it's own. By buddy has an iPod and the Sony and the Karma kill the iPod in the sound department - Just my opinion of course. I love using Napster to Go and downloading an UNLIMITED amount of songs and then loading the Sony up with them.

So I would have to say, if you can find a NOS Karma, pick it up, but understand that it can't be serviced and it may not last for that long.

I know I'm not being to technical, but they are both great players. The Karma can now be considered "vintage", but that does not mean it doesn't perform.......check out the Rio Forums at Riovolution.com Forums (Powered by Invision Power Board) Great stuff over there, but not many new posts on the Karma as it is no longer being made and a lot of them have died.

Foley

 

[marvelusjd]

I have to say it was a sad day recently when my Rio Karma finally died on me. It wasn't the finest looking as some have mentioned, but I wasn't looking for the prettiest device. Sounded great, loved the UI, gapples, FLAC support, great software tool. Nuff said.

 

[selfdivider]

scompton - Thanks for the explanation. If I wasn't sick enough w/ the player, I'd consider amping it to get rid of the fuzz, but I think it's time for an upgrade on the player... had enough of Apple. Even though the word of mouth on the Apple 5.5 seems pretty good.

That's so good to hear that Rio Karma's SQ kicks ass... but disappointing that its durability isn't so good. That's pretty worrying as I'm pretty useless w/ mechanical/technical abilities! Thanks, guys.

 

[scompton]

How do the Carbons die? If it's the hard drive, I wonder if it's replaceable like in the iPod. There are a couple of current threads on replacing the hard drive in an iPod with a flash card. Maybe this is possible with the Carbon as well. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/my...d-mini-290743/ is one of them.

Unfortunately for me, iPods meet 4 of my absolute requirements for a PDP or player on my PC.

• Gapless playback
• Shuffle by album over the entire library (without 1000 playlists)
• The capacity to store more than half of my music collection (the 160GB can store it all, but my 80 GB is working fine for now)
• Dynamically build playlists based on ID3 tags

After all of those are met, then I'll look at SQ. No one has yet been able to point me towards something other than the iPod/iTunes that can do this.

 

[RubenNYC]

FYI, the remaining Karma die-hards and aficionados have moved over to Riovolution (.org)
A lot of the best info, how-to's, FAQ info, etc. have been copied over from .com. There's even great threads on how to mod the Karma for flash memory and even ZIF drives.

I recently revived my Karma for use as a backup. I've gotten too accustomed to my vibez to switch back. Though I might give the Karma a permanent job as an in-car player.