Rega Saturn: What are its weaknesses compared to expensive players?

[NMyTree]

I'm thinking ......

If a $14,000 player doesn't stomp all over a $2,500 player; there would be something seriously wrong in Ronald McDonald Land.

Just for ships and giggles I've hooked up my Yamaha DV-S5750 ($180.00) universal player to one of my systems. I use that one for the kids to watch their dvds. As well, a while back everyone was pulling their collective puds over some goofy Oppo player; me and my buddy tried that, too.

Neither one was good for much but laughs and ear aches.

Then again, I've heard some players in that $14,000 price range who's sound did not appeal to me, either.

I stand behind my last comments in post #16.

 

[Bluetick]

Hi Everyone. I'm new to this forum and there are a lot of great conversations here. I can't resist commenting on this one.

Back to the original Q RE the Saturn. I owned one. I liked it. I liked it so much that I went for an Apollo. I liked it, too. My logic was verified- "spend more- get more".

Then something very unexpected happened. I was putting together a system for my daughter's room- she's a budding audiophile. I wanted a rugged, dependable CD player that also happened to sound good. Many choices led me to pick up a very nice California Audio Labs Icon Mk2 with the Powerboss board. It blew me away. I put it in the main rig downstairs and- to my ears- the unit outperformed my Apollo. Bye Bye Rega.

Two things I want to quickly define here:
1. "to my ears"
2. "outperfromed"

The very nature of this hobby makes is so hard to be completely scientific about anything that can be summed up as "better". Starting with all the personal annomolies of the many human ears out there- from recording pros, designers, reviewers, listeners- it's already a very unscientific hobby from that perspective alone. Combine that with personal tastes, recording quality, acoustics, and the electronic cocktail one gets with associated equipment and it's easy to see why opinions mean very little. "To my ears" means just that- from my personal perspective. I prefer a warm sound over cool, forward over relaxed, smooth highs over sharp highs, and dynamics over timbre. It only "outperformed" because it fit well with my other gear and excelled in the areas that mattered most to me. It will, conversely, underperform if you value other aspects.

So it was with more surprise that I preferred what many would consider a lesser cd player because I was learning about my personal tastes. I liked the qualities evident in a particular unit that might not be what I thought I should like.

FWIW, I now have a tube modded Sony SACD (see profile) that does everything I want. It's easy to know what will likely work in my system because I have first defined what it is I prefer in terms of musical recreation. In my case, that happened only by accident. Experimentation seems to be the key for many people.

About the only way to be somewhat scientific in this hobby is to start with a benchmark piece that really suits your needs and build around it.

The lessons I learnt:

I need to try things for myself.
Don't expect to get more by paying more.

 

[HiWire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluetick /img/forum/go_quote.gif I need to try things for myself. Don't expect to get more by paying more.

True enough. At some point the manufacturers are just taking profit from people who want to spend a lot of money quickly. Also, every engineering team has different sonic preferences, so an extended audition is paramount when comparing sources.

 

[Icarium]

Hrm the Saturn is a lot more expensive than the Apollo. So you liked the Saturn so you downgraded to the Apollo? Or Vice versa just got the names switched.

 

[Bluetick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hrm the Saturn is a lot more expensive than the Apollo. So you liked the Saturn so you downgraded to the Apollo? Or Vice versa just got the names switched.

Oops! Yeah, the switchy thing. Next time I'll attention closer pay. Yoda I am starting to sound like.

I also wanted to add that the rest of my system includes a pair of Westlake BBSM10's (with JBL 2245 18" sub), a Passlabs 150 on the HF, and a Crown K2 on the ULF, A DIY active Xover to split the two @ 80Hz with a DACT linestage buffer/vol control (both battery powered). A vintage Sota Sapphire for vinyl rounds out the rig.

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ridiculous. I'm absolutely unwilling to spend more than 1200 on a source unless it also has true balanced output. That and if it is not a DAC, I expect it to do at least sacd if not dvd-a as well.

why, I have heard dvd-a abd sacd through my estoric and honesty I rather have great redbook

 

[Icarium]

Because I want a player that does it all. If I had the budget, I'd go for whatever player is best in redbook and whatever player is best in sacd, etc. even if they are separate players. But I suspect there is one really good option that will do all three extremely well (We'll see if APL hifi's statement solution will be just that). I mean its not like I'd sacrifice redbook quality for sacd/dvd. And I certainly don't think the Rega Saturn beats out a dv50s in redbook. Not for my tastes anyway.

I know Mikeg says that an exemplar modded 2900? Beats out his Esoteric in redbook... but meh I plan on feeding mine through a pretty sick dac and get it modded as well later on ;p

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because I want a player that does it all. If I had the budget, I'd go for whatever player is best in redbook and whatever player is best in sacd, etc. even if they are separate players. But I suspect there is one really good option that will do all three extremely well (We'll see if APL hifi's statement solution will be just that). I mean its not like I'd sacrifice redbook quality for sacd/dvd. And I certainly don't think the Rega Saturn beats out a dv50s in redbook. Not for my tastes anyway. I know Mikeg says that an exemplar modded 2900? Beats out his Esoteric in redbook... but meh I plan on feeding mine through a pretty sick dac and get it modded as well later on ;p

I guess what I was saying in a really unclear manner is, while balanced is nice for most users it is overkill. Other than the designer creating a better output stage for the balanced outs they should sound about the same. In my albeit limited experience the balanced advantage happens in the amp stage. Most amps sold here use either opamps or trannies to balance the signal so I'm unclear on the need for the additional spend unless the cdp design focused on the balanced outs and put more spend there.
I have not yet heard a player that did multi format so well that it excelled in Redbook, SACD and DVD-A, typically it is better at one at the expense of another. I'm not sure why this is but thats been my experience so far. I dove off the deep end of SACD and DVD-A a while ago and I find I reach for redbook more often then not. Many of Sony's rock SACDs imho are stinkers and they can be bettered by the best of the RB masterings.
I am really excited to hear the APL stuff as I think Alex is a gifted audio designer and seems to have a fairly deep following. But for most folks in the real world the APL stuff of even a two box solution is not vialble for a hi res library that consists of maybe 50 titles. Most set ups are already complex to begin with. I would submit that the rega saturn competes with any comers in that 2K cost category. If I were going to go with a new cdp the rega saturn, ayre cx7e and exemplar 2900 would all be on my radar, in the used market they are all about the same cost give or take $100-200.

 

[HiWire]

I've never heard a rock SACD, but I've started building a collection of Living Stereo classical CDs, so I'm slightly invested in that format. I guess the new catchphrase of audio is "We'll always have redbook."

 

[Icarium]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess what I was saying in a really unclear manner is, while balanced is nice for most users it is overkill. Other than the designer creating a better output stage for the balanced outs they should sound about the same. In my albeit limited experience the balanced advantage happens in the amp stage. Most amps sold here use either opamps or trannies to balance the signal so I'm unclear on the need for the additional spend unless the cdp design focused on the balanced outs and put more spend there. I have not yet heard a player that did multi format so well that it excelled in Redbook, SACD and DVD-A, typically it is better at one at the expense of another. I'm not sure why this is but thats been my experience so far. I dove off the deep end of SACD and DVD-A a while ago and I find I reach for redbook more often then not. Many of Sony's rock SACDs imho are stinkers and they can be bettered by the best of the RB masterings. I am really excited to hear the APL stuff as I think Alex is a gifted audio designer and seems to have a fairly deep following. But for most folks in the real world the APL stuff of even a two box solution is not vialble for a hi res library that consists of maybe 50 titles. Most set ups are already complex to begin with. I would submit that the rega saturn competes with any comers in that 2K cost category. If I were going to go with a new cdp the rega saturn, ayre cx7e and exemplar 2900 would all be on my radar, in the used market they are all about the same cost give or take $100-200.

Some amps don't have that feature. I think the GS-X doesn't have a transformer/opamp to balance the signal and I'm not sure the SS-1 does either. I would guess that dynamights/beta22s general don't either. I know Rudistor amps do... yeah meh. Anyway I'd really prefer to have no opamps in my signal path if possible and sometimes the transformers used in amps (As well as sources) are dodgy, so its really just a matter of finding out where the balancing makes sense and how they go about achieving it. I think I for one do need a fully balanced source since I think my amp won't be doing any splitting given that it is so hardcore about preserving the purity of its signal path that it doesnt even have fricken RCA inputs. Gah.

I don't know if the EMM labs does dvd-a, I want to say maybe not? But it is truly a stunning source with redbook and sacd. In fact its better with sacd but you can't make any complaints about its performance with redbook... it is just one of those players that finally you can fully comprehend the limitations of redbook versus sacd. That's been mine and other's experience anyways (foo_me and more!). Of course the system is a bargain at 10k on the used market unless you can score an ultra deal like Neilvg nabbing his new at 6.5k. Of course overall its not fully inline with my tastes. Anyway, that's what convinced me that it is possible to have a player that kicks ass at least 2 areas.... as long as you spend enough ;p

Anyway, out of those 3 that you listed I'd definitely go with either the ayre or the exemplar or a deal on the dv50s (I saw one reach as low as 2300 once on the 'gon though yeah ~3k is the norm). While the redbook might not equal the performance of the exemplar modded 2900.. its ability to pull detail out is amazing

 

[bhd812]

am i the only one who noticed the same people are talking about the Same product from the same person that started 3-4 different threads (mostly about the same thing)...





just wondering...well got a song for everyone in the 3-4 different threads talking about the same thing...

 

[Icarium]

3-4? I had counted 5. Maybe more if you include that best player under 3000 new thread. Meh, whatever floats his boat ;p These threads are fun

 

[PFKMan23]

The emm labs stuff doesn't do DVD-A (unless they've released some new player that does).

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 /img/forum/go_quote.gif am i the only one who noticed the same people are talking about the Same product from the same person that started 3-4 different threads (mostly about the same thing)... just wondering...well got a song for everyone in the 3-4 different threads talking about the same thing...

player hater

 

[Icarium]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The emm labs stuff doesn't do DVD-A (unless they've released some new player that does).

Yeah didn't think so. Great on redbook and sacd though!