[Matcha]

After a fair amount of deliberation, I've decided to focus my current audio upgrades on headphones (farewell to my dreams of Polk SDA2s). My current setup is this:

Computer (old SB Audigy 2 ZS w/ breakout box) S/PDIF ~~> Onkyo TX-SR605 A/V receiver ~~> Sennheiser HD280 Pro.

I'll be upgrading the headphones, too, likely to the HD600/650 or AKG K701, at least for home listening (the HD280 are indispensable for loud listening environments). That budget will be separate from this.

I also use my PC for home theater needs (though am focusing my upgrades primarily on music), so if it's possible to keep the Onkyo in the chain, I'd like to do so -- can I keep it as my DAC without significant quality loss compared to a standalone DAC?

And is there any point in buying a headphone amp at this budget given the receiver's own headphone out? I suspect there is, especially with the upgrade to a better pair of cans, but I'm not certain -- I've never really seen the merits discussed of headphone outputs on integrated amps. And can I run from the headphone out on the receiver to a dedicated headphone amp just fine?

Do keep in mind, too, that I have no intent of quitting upgrades after this, so something which gives me good performance now while offering a decent upgrade path is ideal. (Whenever I build a new PC, I always make sure to have the highest standards I can within my price range, and build from there -- last time, I made sure I could support SLI, a third full-sized PCIe card at 8x, quad-core, etc.. I find that this is always the best strategy when buying.)

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

Better headphones and better amp would get you to your 500$ budget. I dont see how u can get a HP, DAC and amp for the same price and have the DAC perform better than the Onkyo receiver.

 

[Matcha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jilgiljongiljing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Better headphones and better amp would get you to your 500$ budget. I dont see how u can get a HP, DAC and amp for the same price and have the DAC perform better than the Onkyo receiver.

As I believe I said, headphones are a separate budget.

 

[lobehold]

I'm not an expert but it appears that you could upgrade your source S/PDIF since everything else depends on it, from what I read the piece of equipment used to generate the digital signal (optical, S/PDIF) makes a big difference.

I would say do the source signal upgrade for maybe around $150 (I think you could find some good component at that range) and spend the rest of the money on an amp that synergizes with the headphone you chose.

 

[jet87]

The Headamp Pico seems to be getting a lot of good reviews around here. Its a USB DAC and headphone amplifier in one.

 

[Zodduska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xzjia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not an expert but it appears that you could upgrade your source S/PDIF since everything else depends on it, from what I read the piece of equipment used to generate the digital signal (optical, S/PDIF) makes a big difference. I would say do the source signal upgrade for maybe around $150 (I think you could find some good component at that range) and spend the rest of the money on an amp that synergizes with the headphone you chose.

x2

I also have the Audigy 2 ZS which I use to run analog 5.1 kilpsch ultras. When I got into head-fi a little research revealed that the A2ZS resamples everything to 48khz even for the digital out so it is not an ideal transport. The solution for me was to pick up a cheap ($20) Chaintech AV-710 and flash it with the Prodigy firmware which is then capable of bit-perfect output as well as native ASIO support. There are several very informative threads about the AV-710 so be sure to have a look and see if it may work for you.

FWIW this does not take jitter into account, other high end cards may be worth the premium in that aspect.

 

[Matcha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodduska /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2 I also have the Audigy 2 ZS which I use to run analog 5.1 kilpsch ultras. When I got into head-fi a little research revealed that the A2ZS resamples everything to 48khz even for the digital out so it is not an ideal transport. The solution for me was to pick up a cheap ($20) Chaintech AV-710 and flash it with the Prodigy firmware which is then capable of bit-perfect output as well as native ASIO support. There are several very informative threads about the AV-710 so be sure to have a look and see if it may work for you. FWIW this does not take jitter into account, other high end cards may be worth the premium in that aspect.

Do you know if the resampling is a hardware or software issue? The Creative audio console offers a choice between 48/96.

That said, I'd been considering an upgrade to my sound card, anyway, and if the digital source is actually particularly important, moving to something newer would be welcome -- I'd like to upgrade for gaming, too. I'd like to go to M-audio, but they're really not an option for most things right now, as they don't have particularly functional Vista drivers, and I use Vista for my home theater needs.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Zodduska]

No problem, AFAIK the sample rate conversion is done in hardware and it may be able to do 96khz too.. but for a digital transport of music most of it is in 44.1khz so avoiding any unnecessary molestation of the signal is a good thing. You might also want to take a look at the AuzenTech Auzen X-Fi Prelude for your gaming and music transport needs. You would probably want to do some research here first to make sure but in theory it seems like a solid all arounder.

to address a few questions from your OP:
yes it is worth getting a dedicated headphone amp, especially for the harder to drive cans like the HD600/650 or K701 each have certain amps they pair really well with that should be obtainable within your budget.. read in the amp section to find which amps have great synergy with the headphones you decide on. As mentioned earlier by jet87 the Pico would be a very good all in one solution with the built in USB DAC and good headamp (you wouldnt even need a new soundcard).. though, not counting the DAC section, there is a comprimise for its portability.. it will not be able to drive either of those phones to their full potential. Another option would be to go with a new soundcard, a non-portable amp and use the receiver as your DAC for now.. from there plan to upgrade to a good dedicated DAC.
also, if you were going to use your receiver as your DAC and decide to get a dedicated headphone amp you would connect it via the RCA Line-outs in the back as opposed to the headphone jack.

 

[Matcha]

Thanks again. I think I'm going to adjust my budget allocation and look at amp/headphones as one budget and DAC/sound card as another, which is probably what I should have done in the first place, as the former two are really combined (and I ought to know that from dealing with speakers for the last few years!).

Is there anything I ought to look for in particular in a DAC?

 

[22906]

If I were in your position I would look at the following options:

1. Headamp Pico (if you don't mind waiting a couple months)
2. E-MU 0404 USB as a DAC and maybe an M^3 or some tubeamp

My personal opinion is that trying to get clean SPDIF output from a computer is not worth the expense, just use USB. Also, its difficult to get an internal sound card (no matter how expensive) that does high-quality D/A conversion because of power limitations and noise issues inside computers. You might want to keep your Audigy for gaming use and get a USB DAC to feed your music system.

There are many other <$250 USB DACs that will outperform the DAC in your receiver by far, but choosing which one to get is hard. Recently the Keces DA-151 seems popular. Any way you'll still have at least $200 to get a decent amp.

 

[Zodduska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by m3_arun /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I were in your position I would look at the following options: 1. Headamp Pico (if you don't mind waiting a couple months) 2. E-MU 0404 USB as a DAC and maybe an M^3 or some tubeamp My personal opinion is that trying to get clean SPDIF output from a computer is not worth the expense, just use USB. Also, its difficult to get an internal sound card (no matter how expensive) that does high-quality D/A conversion because of power limitations and noise issues inside computers. You might want to keep your Audigy for gaming use and get a USB DAC to feed your music system. There are many other <$250 USB DACs that will outperform the DAC in your receiver by far, but choosing which one to get is hard. Recently the Keces DA-151 seems popular. Any way you'll still have at least $200 to get a decent amp.

Good points and suggestions here too.

Though one thing to keep in mind is that USB is not flawless in and of itself and in these cases it's USB output vs a well configured spdif/coax that is being used as the digital transport.

 

[Matcha]

So, it's really a question of whether or not I want ease of configuration or ease of use? (Obviously, it's easier to just use one sound device where I can switch between outputs without mucking about with my settings.)

 

[Zodduska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matcha /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, it's really a question of whether or not I want ease of configuration or ease of use? (Obviously, it's easier to just use one sound device where I can switch between outputs without mucking about with my settings.)

Well, somewhat. It will actually be easier in the long run to have two sound devices and you wouldnt have to mess with anything weather it be gaming, movies or music, after the initial configuration. for example in my system I have the two soundcards, audigy 2 zs (games) and av-710 (music). its very nice to be able to have only foobar2k output the av-710 to my dac without windows sound breaking in.

With your budget, goals and simplicity in mind I think I would agree with m3_arun about getting the 0404 USB along with an affordable amp, it seems to be a very good and simple to set up source for its cost.

another overly complex option would be to go the route I went: get a quote from Northern Sound and Lighting for the Presonus CentralStation and it should be well within your budget. the Presonus CS is a nice dac with balanced line outs, two great sounding headphone amps and to top it off a passive speaker preamp. An outstanding all in one solution. Guitar Center price matched for me with no hassle.

keep in mind this is pro audio gear with a rackmount faceplate and the connections in the back are TRS.. I have been content for nearly a year until I just recently wanted to get a taste of tubes, which is surely saying something of the CS

 

[22906]

I like Zodduska's suggestion of the PreSonus Central Station. Back when I had the AKG K501's, I read a review saying that the built in headphone amp of the PreSonus was really good with them. In addition to DA conversion, the PreSonus acts as a very nice passive preamp with an advanced volume control system, which will scale well if you decide to upgrade your DAC later. So I think a great option would be Chaintech AV-710 for a better SPDIF output and a PreSonus Central Station. I am somewhat biased toward USB, I don't know why. Maybe SPDIF out from a computer can sound good, let us know if you try it.

 

[Bones13]

Heh, it is easy to like USB, no sound card driver do setup and configure. And while you can spend a fortune on specially clocked USB interfaces, the regular ones on the better DACs work pretty well.

I am going to vote for an XFi, I have had very good luck getting SPDIF out, and yet be able use EAX during gaming. In fact they let you swap out audiophile/gaming setups pretty easy. You could even set it to output the DVD audio to a multichannel amp as well.

That being said, unless you need positional information gaming, you will be blown away playing a game using any of the above methods, even a simple Headroom Total Bit Head in USB mode using a nice set of headphones. You will not like the sound from a routine set of computer speakers EVER after you experience that.

I have tried TotalBitHead, XFi, Firestone Spitfire, 1212m, Headroom Ultra MicroDAC and my Lavry DA10. To my ears, the XFi, 1212m and Spitfire all were about the same soundwise. While the very solid Lavry continues to be my best performer, I continue to be pleasantly suprised at the Ultra MicroDAC, which includes USB input.