[Foxer]

Hi,
I'm in search of good, older / second hand AMP that will not exceed 400$
The 1st priority is sound quality and transparency (but not to the extent where i need to pay 200% for a 5% improvement)
2nd would be analog 5.1 input .. Or at least 4 speaker output in stereo mode.
3rd.. nice tone control (treble/bass) in case i need them
4th.. a good integrated DAC would also be nice
5th.. Power
 
 
I have no idea if H.K. is considered audiophile or not, but what i've stumbled upon so far, is a Harman Kardon AVR 8500 in very good condition, for about 380$. And a Harman Kardon AVR 3000 for half that price. 
Although the extra features are welcome, i don't think i'll use audio processing, or video inputs, or other bells and whistles that it may have..
And i'm thinking that i might find a better AMP for this kind of money, instead of paying for stuff i might not use.
Also i'm not too keen about the Rotary Encoder Volume control, instead of the old-fashioned potentiometer, coz i think it might mess with the sound, and they also have a shorter life span..
 
For the last 10 years i've owned a Pioneer VSX-D557, and i'm kind of fed up with it's muffled sound (unless i crank the treble to the max, and turn the Loudness on)
 
I'm not an expert by any chance; so i have no clue what to buy, i don't even know what brands lean towards audiophile or not. 
So i really need some help with this.. 
Thanks!

 

[PurpleAngel]

I'm sure some fellow Head-fiers can give you some good advice on modern speaker amplifiers.
But you also might consider to asking on the AVSforum and AVforum websites.

 

[Foxer]

Thanks 

 

[obobskivich]

HK isn't bad but if I recall right they've had issues with overheating on some surround sound models - couldn't tell you which ones specifically and it may just be scuttlebutt.

Three specific models that come to mind though are the Yamaha DSP-A1, RX-V995, and the Marantz SR-8000 (I've owned/own all of them). The Yamaha A1 is the superior of the three, but all are very good and will satisfy everything you want. Going for a separate (multi-channel) amplifier can get ludicrously expensive but if you don't mind "two boxes" a pair of stereo amplifiers could easily satisfy four channel operation and may be cheaper than a similar receiver (e.g. you can buy a pair of Onkyo 5010s for around your stated budget, and that's brand-new pricing; AudioSource or Behringer amps will probably be even cheaper) - just keep in mind you've gotta have a multi-channel volume control of some sort there.

 

[Foxer]

There IS one Yamaha DSP-A1 for sale in Romania.. for 225$, but it's it's pretty far away, so the trip will cost an additional 75$ , going to a total of 300$. I will look for more details on this model. (is it worth the prince?)
 
Regarding the H.K. avr 8500, i think this might be one of those problematic models.
Although the sound seems to be fantastic, I read a few complaints about their build quality and some of the problems that some owners had with the volume control, and/or buzzing on some channels.. And in some cases, straight out dying, and no one being able to fix them.  
I was thinking that if the unit is good, i might be able to keep it in good condition by putting some fans in the right places. And maybe using the remote volume instead of the knob 

 
 
Also found a few Marantz ZR6001 ranging from 125$ to 215$ for sale here in Romania.. Are they any good?

 

[Foxer]

@obobskivich
how does the Yamaha DSP-A1 handle 5.1 ?? -- i'm also thinking of using the 5.1 capabilities for PC gaming. 
(How easy is it to set up 5.1 on it? Does it have weird modes that make life difficult? etc..)
Can you please share your experience with the unit in that regard? (and overall if you don't mind 

 ) 
 
edit:
Also, what makes it better than the others you mentioned?
 
Thanks!
 
edit2:
Sorry.. I've just come to the realization that it doesn't have 5.1 inputs; only outputs. 

 

[obobskivich]

There IS one Yamaha DSP-A1 for sale in Romania.. for 225$, but it's it's pretty far away, so the trip will cost an additional 75$ , going to a total of 300$. I will look for more details on this model. (is it worth the prince?)

Regarding the H.K. avr 8500, i think this might be one of those problematic models.
Although the sound seems to be fantastic, I read a few complaints about their build quality and some of the problems that some owners had with the volume control, and/or buzzing on some channels.. And in some cases, straight out dying, and no one being able to fix them.  
I was thinking that if the unit is good, i might be able to keep it in good condition by putting some fans in the right places. And maybe using the remote volume instead of the knob   

Also found a few Marantz ZR6001 ranging from 125$ to 215$ for sale here in Romania.. Are they any good?

~$300 US isn't bad for an A1 at all. It's a bit high but you're including shipping/travel in that, so that doesn't seem so unreasonable. $225 by itself sounds fair. I really don't know that specific HK model, and I've never heard of a "Marantz ZR" before (doesn't mean it doesn't exist; I've just never heard of it). A lot of Marantz receivers from around that era are very similar, usually separated by a few features, for example SR7000 and SR8000 are essentially the same, except SR8000 has HDAM as opposed to opamps for some parts of its innards. So if ZR6001 is from a similar era (just look at pictures - they recycled face-plates a lot) I'd expect it to be pretty similar internally as well. And that said, Marantz is generally well built kit, so that's going for it too.

@obobskivich

how does the Yamaha DSP-A1 handle 5.1 ?? -- i'm also thinking of using the 5.1 capabilities for PC gaming. 
(How easy is it to set up 5.1 on it? Does it have weird modes that make life difficult? etc..)
Can you please share your experience with the unit in that regard? (and overall if you don't mind   ) 

edit:
Also, what makes it better than the others you mentioned?

Thanks!

edit2:
Sorry.. I've just come to the realization that it doesn't have 5.1 inputs; only outputs. 

A1 absolutely accepts 5.1 inputs, both as multi-ch analog (6ch ext in) and digital (both Dolby and DTS, via TOSlink, coaxial S/PDIF, and (if you have anything that can use it) AC-3 RF). It handles 5.1 very well, and has a lot of DSP modes for stereo or digital multi-ch inputs to downmix/upmix/etc as desired the multi-ch input (the 6ch ext in it treats as a "bypass" for its DSP which makes sense in most circumstances). As far as why its better than the other two, its got a more robust amplifier/power supply, more inputs, and a lot more robust DSP suite (CinemaDSP 7ch as opposed to "basic" CinemaDSP on the V995, and essentially nothing on the Marantz). That isn't to say the others don't sound good, but the A1 is just that little extra "better" all around.

Here's a rear picture of the A1 I found online:


The "External Decoder Input" is the discrete multi-ch analog input - you can also send digital multi-ch into any of the digital connections, so if your computer can do Dolby Digital Live or DTS: Connect, you can use that and have a single digital connection. Using the digital route will also enable the internal processor's features for multi-ch, including the DSP suite, time alignment, etc (these features being unavailable when using the multi-ch input is a very common feature for AV receivers and SSPs - very few of them actually digitize those inputs for processing).




As far as my experience, I have the A1, and have owned its older brother, the A3090 (A3090 does not support DTS or offer 5.1 analog input) - both are very clean sounding amplifiers, have the excellent 7ch CinemaDSP package which is great for multi-ch surround from movies, and don't have any "quirks" in terms of their daily use. What I mean by that is, if it supports a given input, decoder, etc it fully supports it - there's no weird "well it can do this except for in this circumstance and then it can't" like some AV receivers offer - for example on the A1 it fully handles DTS, including downmixing, DSP processing, etc with no fuss (a lot of receivers from that era (late 90s), DTS was usually a bit touchy subject for them), it can downmix anything input into it for headphone out, its very programmable, etc. Basically they "just work" within the limits of their specs. The V995 and SR8000 aren't bad by any means, but they each have some minor quirks or downgrade features that can make more advanced/complicated setups annoying to hook up, like the 995's CinemaDSP implementation is very stripped-down and doesn't offer as many options, or the SR8k has some remote-only configuration options. The 995 and SR8k also don't have coupler connections, while the A1 and A3090 do (at least for the main and center), which makes it easier (on the A1/3090) to add various components to the mix, while the 995/8k are basically beholden to external amplification if you want to add some features. For plugging in headphones (this is Head-Fi after all), the A1/3090 also offer better sound ime - they're quiet, clean, etc sounding while the 995 and 8k could be a bit noisy which was obnoxious with more sensitive, low-impedance cans (e.g. Grados).

 

[Foxer]

Wow! That's one good review! Thanks
I'll note this down to be a good option; especially for the cleaner sound you mentioned!
DSP-wise, i'm not that much into.. but raw clean sound

I'll take a look over the internals as soon as i get a bit of free time.
(The HK avr 8500 had some Toshiba 3rd geneation TRAITR Power Transistors, that had really got me sold on the model. They keep the dinamics and separations in place, no matter how low (or high) the volume goes).
If it waren't for the problems it's plagued with... argh!

edit:
Is the Yamaha A1 ok to get without a remote?
The guy said he doesn't have the original remote any more, but a replacement i think..

 

[obobskivich]

Wow! That's one good review! Thanks
I'll note this down to be a good option; especially for the cleaner sound you mentioned!
DSP-wise, i'm not that much into.. but raw clean sound

Honestly I'm right there with you on DSP, until I heard CinemaDSP on the A3090 some years ago. Yamaha really went the extra mile in working it out (they used to have a lot of documentation about it on their website, but that's all gone now, unfortunately) - it isn't just the typical "noise from all channels" claxon in a box canyon "I need multi-channel" mess like Pro Logic II or whatever else, but instead uses the DSP to try and re-create an acoustic performance. It's using the extra channels for that kind of simulacrum, as opposed to just trying to put audio on them. On the later, home-theater oriented products (like the A1) they collaborated with Dolby and some other movie-oriented entities to tune it for movie reproduction (for example the "Adventure" mode was based heavily on sampling/modeling from the Indiana Jones movies). Overall I think they did a very good job with it, and it's probably the only DSP "enhancer" feature that I can really listen to - everything else is usually just a lot of clangy noise attempting to make every speaker "do something" for no other reason than "noise from all channels."

That said, and this is another reason I like the DSP-A series, you can just hit "Effect Off" and the DSP/decoder is off, and you have more native in/out playback (this is always the case for "External Decoder" too). Do note, neither the A3090 nor the A1 (and this is true of many other AV receivers too) can do a more conventional "Pure Direct" mode (like some of the older Yamaha integrateds/receivers) because (afaik) they do not offer a pure analog signal path through. I don't know what the A3090 uses for its A/D, but the A1 uses a 24-bit AKM AK4324 A/D for its inputs (you can read a review that goes a lot more in-depth on this here: http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_3/yamahadspa1processor.html) - you're able to bypass any DSP effects/processing but it still has to pass through the A/D -> D/A chain from what I understand. This is true of other receivers too, as any DSP functionality requires the data to be in digital format before it can act upon it, hence the digitization of inputs (and indeed the A1's DSP is available no matter what input you're after). For the multi-ch "External Decoder" input there is likely a bypass of the A/D because that input isn't digitized (e.g. DSP is unavailable there), but it isn't advertised as a "Pure Direct" feature (and conversely if you *wanted* digitization of multi-ch, which would enable bass management, time alignment, etc to be done by the processor as opposed to relying on the source to handle that, there's very few devices that do this - the Accuphase VX700 is one such example (the Parasound P7, iirc, also has analog bass management, if you wanted to approach this from another angle, and there's also the Outlaw ICBM)).

Depending on your source it may or may not be better to use the external decoder vs letting the Yamaha's DSP handle the signal - if you're hooking into something that can do its own channel leveling, time alignment, bass management, etc then that's fine, but if you need those features, let the A1 handle the input via multi-channel digital (assuming your source can provide that as an alternative).

edit:
Is the Yamaha A1 ok to get without a remote?
The guy said he doesn't have the original remote any more, but a replacement i think..

Without a remote? Sure. You'll potentially want a display when you go through its setup options though - its a lot easier than reading its tiny little VFD.

 

[Foxer]

-deleted-

 

[Foxer]

-deleted-
 
(somebody had a yamaha A1 for sale right in my neighborhood.. turns out he screwed up the location on the ad)

 

[Foxer]

@obobskivich many thanks for your in-depth posts about the Yamaha DSP-A1.
You've pretty much steered me into having it on my top list
 
I've been looking far and wide, and the only other model that's truly even more outstanding from yamaha, is the DSP Z9 / RX Z9. But sadly i can only find it on eBay, and it's ~50% over my buget, NOT including shipping
So, other contenders comparable to the Z9, i found out to be: Pioneer VSA AX10i-S , Marantz SR-9300, and of course, the H.K. avr-8500. 
In a close second place, with a more balanced and neutral sound, are the Denon Avc-A1SR (5803 in US) & A1SRA .. And the Onkyo TX-DS989UPG2. 
These, of course being nowhere in sight of my price range.. or location.
 
My biggest fear is:
-- "you're able to bypass any DSP effects/processing but it still has to pass through the A/D -> D/A chain from what I understand. This is true of other receivers too, as any DSP functionality requires the data to be in digital format before it can act upon it, hence the digitization of inputs (and indeed the A1's DSP is available no matter what input you're after)" This would be a deal-breaker for me, for any receiver.
But you also said:
-- "For the multi-ch "External Decoder" input there is likely a bypass of the A/D because that input isn't digitized (e.g. DSP is unavailable there), but it isn't advertised as a "Pure Direct" feature"
 
On my pioneer, when i turn the DSP on/off, you can hear a relay "clicking" in the unit.. Whick leads me to believe that ONLY when using DSP, it commutes to a different circuit (that includes the A/D Converter). Does this"clicking" also occur in the Yamaha A1 ??? (or maybe when you press the "tape2 mon / ext. decoder" button??)
 
Also, considering that i'm mostly looking for the analog 5.1 inputs.. can you please tell me how do they sound? (the manual leads me to believe that the front speakers are only for effects or something..). And i would like to use them as normal stereo speakers when not playing a game for example..
Also.. There is External Decoder MAIN, there is MAIN-In, there is also CD-In.. What the heck 

 Is there any difference in how they sound, in comparison to the front input for the surround?.
(RANT: i've edited this post like 10 times coz i couldn't grasp all the I/Os .. WHILST reading the screwing manual! .. Under the "external decoder input section" it says i can connect: an external sound processor.. ok. External decoder.. mmmok.. External Amplifier.. What?! How T.F. is it telling me to connect an AMPLIFIER to it's low signal input connections?! What if there was someone dumb enough to connect a 200W amp there.. i bet that would have turned out fantastic! What the h*ll happened to a simple label like "Analog-In"?! if it is indeed an analog input!! Who the screw even knows what "EXTERNAL DECODER" means?! You could very well connect a Walkman to any of those inputs, and it'll work fine.. and a Walkman IS NOT A F-ING EXTERNAL DECODER!! F-ing retards...  ) 
I had to vent this out, sorry. This pissed me off soooo much. I just wasted 2 hours of my life trying to understand Yamaha's IDIOTIC labeling. And the manual is just as stupid. I've looked through tenths of AVRs in the last few days, so much so that my head is spinning.. but none pissed me off as much as this one. 
 
Moving on
I'm looking for the amp to reproduce the sound as close to the original audio source as possible .. And sadly, almost every review i've read, doesn't touch on the subject of how good is the sound on the different analog inputs in particular :-\ Do they all have the same path? Sound the same? Actually most of the time i don't even have a damn clue as to what inputs (analog or digital) is the review based on, coz they don't clearly say 

  (even worse with newer product's reviews)
 
Later Edit:
------------
I see that the A1 has the option to introduce Delay to the center speaker. Does this also work when the center speaker signal comes from the "External decoder input" ??
(i think this might be a good indicative if the analog inputs are digitized or not) 
 
Also, do tone controls work for the "External decoder input" ?

 

[Foxer]

After a look into the Electronic Diagram of the A1, i can see that it has a very direct path from the "external decoder input" to the actual amp! Even the switch and potentiometer are purely mechanical (not an switching Integrated Circuit) and the signal only passes through the tone controls.
Also looked into the HK 8500 schematics, and except for a few "switching IC's" (which i may not like.. but that's life), it only passes through the tone controls (which iirc, are also switching IC's).. So the problems that affected almost everyone who owns an 8500, might not affect me, since i don't want to use any of the internal processing and A/D - D/A route.
 
In any case, the first guy with the A1 didn't respond anymore, and the second guy (who lives in the same far away city as the first guy), has it for 75$ more, and won't drop the price. 
 
So then i called the guy with the HK, and he dropped 20$ off of the price and he's at a 2-hour drive from where i live.. and has a killer set of speakers that i can test both the 8500's that he has, and pick the one i like best
 
So.. despite the fact that i grew very fond of the yamaha brand in these past few days, and the A1's gorgeous exterior & interior as well (and am still ultimately wishing for a DSP Z9).. i'm gonna go with the flimsy, plastic, made in china,  HK; just because it's an unbeatable value at 350 US$. And sound-wise it's almost close to the league of the Z9.
 
II wish to thank everyone that helped me, and especially you @obobskivich for your great review and for opening my eyes to the yamaha audio market
 
Cheers!

 

[obobskivich]

@obobskivich
 many thanks for your in-depth posts about the Yamaha DSP-A1.
You've pretty much steered me into having it on my top list

I've been looking far and wide, and the only other model that's truly even more outstanding from yamaha, is the DSP Z9 / RX Z9. But sadly i can only find it on eBay, and it's ~50% over my buget, NOT including shipping
So, other contenders comparable to the Z9, i found out to be: Pioneer VSA AX10i-S , Marantz SR-9300, and of course, the H.K. avr-8500. 
In a close second place, with a more balanced and neutral sound, are the Denon Avc-A1SR (5803 in US) & A1SRA .. And the Onkyo TX-DS989UPG2. 
These, of course being nowhere in sight of my price range.. or location.

Yes any of those flagship AVRs will be a good quality amplifier, decoder, etc. Z9 is a bit newer model than the A1 (it supports 6.1, among other things, which drives the price up higher), there's also the V1, Z7, Z11 (featuring 11.2 CinemaDSP), V3800/3900, V4600, etc. And many more from other mfgrs. There was a time when "home theater" wasn't a dirty word, and still meant good quality hardware at the top end.

You might throw some other Marantz SR-7xxx, 8xxx, and 9xxx models into your search too. I'd be leery of Onkyo because various models over the years have had reliability issues, so that's something to consider.

My biggest fear is:
-- "you're able to bypass any DSP effects/processing but it still has to pass through the A/D -> D/A chain from what I understand. This is true of other receivers too, as any DSP functionality requires the data to be in digital format before it can act upon it, hence the digitization of inputs (and indeed the A1's DSP is available no matter what input you're after)" This would be a deal-breaker for me, for any receiver.
But you also said:
-- "For the multi-ch "External Decoder" input there is likely a bypass of the A/D because that input isn't digitized (e.g. DSP is unavailable there), but it isn't advertised as a "Pure Direct" feature"

On my pioneer, when i turn the DSP on/off, you can hear a relay "clicking" in the unit.. Whick leads me to believe that ONLY when using DSP, it commutes to a different circuit (that includes the A/D Converter). Does this"clicking" also occur in the Yamaha A1 ??? (or maybe when you press the "tape2 mon / ext. decoder" button??)

No, there's no relay click-clack when switching to Ext Decoder, but that doesn't mean it isn't switching - if it was using diode switches it'd be quiet but still be switching. I don't actually know if this is or isn't the case (the internals are very busy/complex and I haven't had the inclination to actually tear it down very far) but just a point that a lack of relays doesn't mean, explicitly, that switching isn't occurring. Personally I don't notice anything offensive about any of its inputs (same for the other models I mentioned), and have, to my satisfaction, confirmed that despite all of the mass hysteria about how "bad" AD->D/A is, its generally inaudible, at least for me. The "worst" chain I've setup to test this hypothesis had 3-4 D/A, 3 D/D, and 2 A/D sections all tied together before we arrived at anything resembling an output, and I couldn't tell it apart from "the original" with a single D/A. Of course someone else may have a different experience with different gear/circumstances, but in my experience, it's much ado about nothing. Enjoy the music.

Also, considering that i'm mostly looking for the analog 5.1 inputs.. can you please tell me how do they sound? (the manual leads me to believe that the front speakers are only for effects or something..). And i would like to use them as normal stereo speakers when not playing a game for example..
Also.. There is External Decoder MAIN, there is MAIN-In, there is also CD-In.. What the heck   Is there any difference in how they sound, in comparison to the front input for the surround?.
(RANT: i've edited this post like 10 times coz i couldn't grasp all the I/Os .. WHILST reading the screwing manual! .. Under the "external decoder input section" it says i can connect: an external sound processor.. ok. External decoder.. mmmok.. External Amplifier.. What?! How T.F. is it telling me to connect an AMPLIFIER to it's low signal input connections?! What if there was someone dumb enough to connect a 200W amp there.. i bet that would have turned out fantastic! What the h*ll happened to a simple label like "Analog-In"?! if it is indeed an analog input!! Who the screw even knows what "EXTERNAL DECODER" means?! You could very well connect a Walkman to any of those inputs, and it'll work fine.. and a Walkman IS NOT A F-ING EXTERNAL DECODER!! F-ing retards...  ) 
I had to vent this out, sorry. This pissed me off soooo much. I just wasted 2 hours of my life trying to understand Yamaha's IDIOTIC labeling. And the manual is just as stupid. I've looked through tenths of AVRs in the last few days, so much so that my head is spinning.. but none pissed me off as much as this one. 

Yamaha's labeling is actually quite straight-forward, once you figure it out, but certainly any of these older receivers will look a bit different than modern "everything is HDMI" systems:

- In Yamaha's labeling, "Front" is "Front Presence" or "Front Effects" while the conventional left/right speakers are labeled "Main" - the "Main" labeling is pretty conventional but not many other mfgrs have "Front" speakers (that's part of CinemaDSP).
- The unit has pre-outs for all of this, able to connect up to 8.2 to the rear, and accept up to 5.1 discrete input via digital. It cannot upmix/re-processing 5.1 discrete analog to CinemaDSP, and the time alignment ("center delay"), bass management, etc are unavailable in that mode. I do not believe the tone controls are ever defeatable, but I don't use them that often so honestly I don't worry about it.
- Like many higher quality integrated amps, it has pre/main couplers - this means the pre-out is connected via an external jumper to the power amp's input. This is done to allow insertion of an outboard processor of some sort (e.g. an EQ), while also providing access to the pre-outs if you wanted to use a separate power amp (therefore you wouldn't use the "main in" connectors). The headphone section on the A1 is independent of this (it exists in the preamp side and is driven by a dedicated circuit) so you can hook up whatever you want/need to this loop with no impact on headphone performance.
- The "External Decoder" is designed for, as you may have guessed, an external decoder. In the world of 1990s receivers this generally meant multi-channel SACD, outboard DTS/Dolby, or similar - you have some multi-channel format that needs decoding, and the receiver itself doesn't offer it. Newer receivers drop the "External Decoder" labeling and usually label it "Multi-Ch" or similar, since there really wasn't much done (at least in consumer space) with external digital decoding past the original Dolby/DTS decoders of yesteryear, and SACD/DVD-Audio universal players (e.g. we don't have stand-alone Dolby TrueHD decoders), but there are devices (like computers) that often can use that 5.1 or 7.1 input directly. There is no DSP processing available here, because the presumption is usually that whatever [device] can provide its own (and if you're thinking about an older stand-alone Dolby/DTS decoder, it truly can, for example) - this can be a problem with some computers and their multi-channel outputs, if they don't offer much customization in their audio drivers.

You are correct that you could hook up any source to the Ext Decoder input, but you're not going to have the full functionality of the A1's DSPs. Some receivers allow "switching" their multi-ch between an external decoder input and an additional stereo (2ch) input, with access to the DSP and everything (the Marantz SR-8000 I mentioned is one such example). Others just treat it as a "block" of inputs that never separates. There's some variability in how internally flexible the signal routing on these things is, but generally speaking they follow a more or less typical set of conventions.

Moving on
I'm looking for the amp to reproduce the sound as close to the original audio source as possible .. And sadly, almost every review i've read, doesn't touch on the subject of how good is the sound on the different analog inputs in particular :-\ Do they all have the same path? Sound the same? Actually most of the time i don't even have a damn clue as to what inputs (analog or digital) is the review based on, coz they don't clearly say :mad:   (even worse with newer product's reviews)

See above. I really don't find a problem with any of its connections, and similar on other devices. It's going to sound like the A1 no matter how its connected. I'll agree with newer home theater product reviews getting less and less thorough - unfortunately it just seems to be par for the course with newer "home theater" equipment.

After a look into the Electronic Diagram of the A1, i can see that it has a very direct path from the "external decoder input" to the actual amp! Even the switch and potentiometer are purely mechanical (not an switching Integrated Circuit) and the signal only passes through the tone controls.
Also looked into the HK 8500 schematics, and except for a few "switching IC's" (which i may not like.. but that's life), it only passes through the tone controls (which iirc, are also switching IC's).. So the problems that affected almost everyone who owns an 8500, might not affect me, since i don't want to use any of the internal processing and A/D - D/A route.

In any case, the first guy with the A1 didn't respond anymore, and the second guy (who lives in the same far away city as the first guy), has it for 75$ more, and won't drop the price. 

So then i called the guy with the HK, and he dropped 20$ off of the price and he's at a 2-hour drive from where i live.. and has a killer set of speakers that i can test both the 8500's that he has, and pick the one i like best

So.. despite the fact that i grew very fond of the yamaha brand in these past few days, and the A1's gorgeous exterior & interior as well (and am still ultimately wishing for a DSP Z9).. i'm gonna go with the flimsy, plastic, made in china,  HK; just because it's an unbeatable value at 350 US$. And sound-wise it's almost close to the league of the Z9.

II wish to thank everyone that helped me, and especially you @obobskivich
 for your great review and for opening my eyes to the yamaha audio market

Cheers!

I hope it works for you (and it sounds like you've found the right part for you). Ultimately, again IME, higher end AV receivers "from back in the day" are a fine value if you don't need whatever latest-and-greatest from the home theater side (e.g. HDMI stuff), because generally mfgrs were still interested in building quality amplifiers, preamplifiers, etc and the used market has largely passed these components over in favor of more modern digital gear, and more simple 2ch gear. That isn't to say they're a good "one size for all" option, just that they often represent a good value on the used market, even if you're only after a 2ch setup.