[Quaintative]

Hi all,
 
I've been reading up a lot about DACs and I could use a little bit of help picking one. I used to use an M-Audio Audiophile USB that I purchased back in 2002, but it died a few years ago, and I've been suffering through laptop onboard sound ever since.
 
I'm not immediately worrying about getting a new amp (Parasound Zamp v3) or speakers (Yamahas) or limited power conditioning yet (Furman), but I am using the Grado 325i, Senn HD590s (ok, stop laughing, I like them), and Ety ER-4P/S.
 
My listening ranges all around, Classica/Jazz/Pop/Rock/Electronica/Country/Musicals....  But my background is in 12 years of classical violin, so I have a pretty good idea what live classical music is supposed to sound like (I'm mostly disappointed with what my system sounds like in comparison to live, but that only bothers me when I listen to live music...). I watch movies off the same system too.
 
I'm also pretty sure that my background in Violin has permanently biased me to being used to bright sounding sound signatures. The 325i's reminded me of playing violin, while the HD590 reminded me of sitting in the middle rows. The HD595s I tried put me in the front row....
 
My outputs are an HP laptop (which limits me to USB output), and a BootCamped Macbook pro (which I hope I can use the optical TOSLINK on while in windows 7)
 
I was thinking about the Schiit Gungnir, but the Asus Xonar Essence One Muses edition looks really interesting to me too. I'm a bit of a tinkerer with electronics, but never to the point of soldering ICs myself. Mostly building desktop systems and the like.
 
... Any other suggestions? 1K is a pretty hard limit...
 
-Quaintative

 

[FraGGleR]

Quote:

Hi all,
 
I've been reading up a lot about DACs and I could use a little bit of help picking one. I used to use an M-Audio Audiophile USB that I purchased back in 2002, but it died a few years ago, and I've been suffering through laptop onboard sound ever since.
 
I'm not immediately worrying about getting a new amp (Parasound Zamp v3) or speakers (Yamahas) or limited power conditioning yet (Furman), but I am using the Grado 325i, Senn HD590s (ok, stop laughing, I like them), and Ety ER-4P/S.
 
My listening ranges all around, Classica/Jazz/Pop/Rock/Electronica/Country/Musicals....  But my background is in 12 years of classical violin, so I have a pretty good idea what live classical music is supposed to sound like (I'm mostly disappointed with what my system sounds like in comparison to live, but that only bothers me when I listen to live music...). I watch movies off the same system too.
 
I'm also pretty sure that my background in Violin has permanently biased me to being used to bright sounding sound signatures. The 325i's reminded me of playing violin, while the HD590 reminded me of sitting in the middle rows. The HD595s I tried put me in the front row....
 
My outputs are an HP laptop (which limits me to USB output), and a BootCamped Macbook pro (which I hope I can use the optical TOSLINK on while in windows 7)
 
I was thinking about the Schiit Gungnir, but the Asus Xonar Essence One Muses edition looks really interesting to me too. I'm a bit of a tinkerer with electronics, but never to the point of soldering ICs myself. Mostly building desktop systems and the like.
 
... Any other suggestions? 1K is a pretty hard limit...
 
-Quaintative

What are you using to drive your headphones?  With the Gungnir, you will need a separate headphone amp.  I'd say keep researching or if you can buy/borrow a couple and test them out for yourself.  Everyone perceives things differently.  And threads like this always get a random assortment of DAC recommendations from people who have either only tried one or two DACs or people who are simply parroting what they have read themselves.

 

[Quaintative]

Well, if I got the Muses, then I'd power the headphones directly from the Muses. With the Gungnir, I'd have to use the Parasound as a headphone amp until I upgrade that.
 
The parasound doesn't have much publicity and it's an older part, but I can't imagine that it's that terrible (of course, haven't never heard too many other headphone amps, I'm far from an expert.
 
How would I go about trying/borrowing Dacs? I don't know too many folks who are into this stuff in my area, and if anything, I'm only "beginning" (I've been "beginning" for 10 years, heh) to get into the "more expensive" (to me) audio equipment.
 
I guess what I'm looking for is seeing if there's anything else out there that I should consider aside from the Gungnir and the Muses. Without being able to test, I can only rely on the more comprehensive review sites and these forums to give me an adequate overview of the market...

 

[FraGGleR]

In my opinion, I think headphone, amplification, source, then cables is the order for the most important order to spend money in this hobby.  An up to $1000 DAC doesn't make sense to me if you don't have headphones or an amp that matches in quality (unless you plan to upgrade later).  I am currently in the market for an up to $1000 DAC since I am set on headphone (HD800), and amp (Bottlehead S.E.X.).
 
For me, I want something detailed and relatively neutral so I am looking at the Resonessence Concero HD (when it is released), Audio-Gd 1.32, and possibly Matrix X-Sabre as standalone DACs.  The Gungnir gets good reviews, but it is too large for my audio setup.  I am quite happy with my Nuforce HDP with linear power supply, but I am curious what I can get for roughly double.  I can't make any other recommendations because I haven't heard anything in the range yet.  The One Muses gets pretty good reviews as an all in one, as does the CEntrance DACmini.  A used Benchmark DAC1 might work for you as well.
 
Hope that gives you something to start with.

 

[Quaintative]

Yea, I know I'm improving my rig in a somewhat piecemeal way. The "PC-->Foobar-->Audiophile USB-->Parasound-->HD590/ER-4S/Nondescript Yamaha" was something that I slowly put together over the course of 10 years.... I figured since I had a huge hole at DAC (since I no longer have one), it would be a good place to start.
 
I find it interesting how Audiophile bottlenecks occur in a completely different way from the PC building mindset. From the CS perspective, there's a black box for compute, and another black box for I/O. The faster you shuffle data between these two (and the output), the better. The reality is that the compute is split nowadays between general purpose (CPU) and parallel processing (GPU), and the I/O is split between the CPU caches, RAM (with varying latencies, depending on the system), and drive (HD or SSD). If you want to make a computer faster, you only think about speeding up the I/O or the processing of the data.
 
On the other hand, in the Audiophile business, there's neutral (of which you want some of, but not too much, lest it becomes too "analytical"), there's colored (which you seem to want a little bit of to fix artifacts in the source.) There's the fact that you need need to think about power in a different way (do I have enough power for my HD600s?). Then the matter of headphone/speaker design, amplifier design, cable design, a million different producers for each of these parts, and the fact that each product can be defined in terms of scientific, psychoacoustic and emotional terms....
 
Which brings me back to the question of what order to build in.... I figure.... aside from the hole that I have at DAC, I figured on building things back out from the basis that I can understand. I don't understand headphones/speakers and amps yet. Cables...I don't quite believe in yet (I've seen too many blind A/B reviews with wire hangers).
 
Anyway, that's just what I'm thinking about. I don't know too much about it's relevance..... I wonder if you can swap the OpAmps to make the Muse sound "analytical".
 
Also, thanks for the advice. I was looking for some other DACs out there that I should look into.

 

[khaine1711]

If you want to compare to PC terms, let's say your audiophile goal is similar to playing BF3 at max setting in 1080p with 60+ Fps.
 
The Headphone is like the VGA, the Amp is like the CPU and the DAC is like SSD. This is to be interpreted as you can't stick a 1000 bucks dac in a $500 buck audio chain and get significant (1000 bucks worth) improvement (i.e stick a SSD into a Core 2 duo machine with a 560Ti). Meanwhile if you already got good stuff up there, then a DAC will bring noticable improvement (i.e. stick a SSD into an i5 + 7950 rig will bring more performance increase than either upgrade the CPU or the VGA).
 
Basically, like fraggler said, you should spend and find the best headphone you can live with; then find a decent amp (doesn't have to be top of the line this and that), and then finally invest in a Dac.

 

[Quaintative]

Heh... a couple years back, I put an Intel X25-e into a netbook because I was sick of dealing with hard drive latency... Of course, ultrabooks have destroyed the netbook segment, but it was a neat trick at the time to improve the responsiveness of the machine.
 
So if we're sticking to the DAC=SSD metaphor, then I think I have a history of this sort of upgrade path 

.
 
But I get your point.... I'll get a DAC that I can grow, and then I'll upgrade around that - most likely an HD600/HD650/LCD-2 or Magnuming a pair of Grados. I really have to find some other audiophiles in my area. It's been awhile since I've listened to music more seriously, so I think my headphone tastes have shifted....

 

[Quaintative]

And the second part of the logic is.... Amps and Speakers/Headphones appear to be the most personalized aspect of audiophile tuning.... which makes me think that if I get a good DAC that I can grow into, I can mix and match the downstream Amp/Headphone/Speaker.
 
Especially since I don't have a DAC right now.....

 

[FraGGleR]

You can proceed any way you want.  If you start with a DAC, I would focus your research on getting as much detail, resolution, transparency, etc. so that you don't bottleneck your system or limit your EQing ability.  If you start with something detailed and neutral, you can use your amp to an extent and mainly your headphones to get the sound you want.

 

[KLJTech]

I just finished a search for the best DAC I could use in my office system (Creek OBH-22 Passive, Parasound A23 amp, B&W CDM 1NT's or NHT C3's) and its certainly worth a listen to see if it fits your needs...good luck!   
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/parasound-zdac
 
 
http://hometheaterreview.com/parasound-zdac-192khz-digital-to-analog-converter/
 
 
http://dsmaudio.be/pers/parasound/ZDac_review.pdf
 
P.S 
A Parasound Zdac will now end up replacing the DAC (3 year old Benchmark DAC1) in my main system as well.

 

[Quaintative]

That's really cool!
 
I didn't know (I should have known) that parasound made a DAC.
 
I'm going to look into the:
-Resonessence Concero HD (when it is released),
-Audio-Gd 1.32
-Matrix X-Sabre as standalone DACs
-CEntrance DACmini
-Nuforce HDP
 
I've already looked at the Gungnir and the Xonar One Muses.
 
As far as the DAC1.... I am somewhat curious - how much have DACs improved over the years? For headphones, I've seen the HD600/HD650/HD800 progression with each one taking the mantle from the preceding one, and there were only a few companies which made serious headphones. Nowadays, there's like 15 companies and 15 different competitors trying to wrest the mantle of top headphone from the incumbent etc....
 
How do older DACs compare to newer DACs? Are the improvement over time mainly as updates to accomodate new inputs (Coax, SPDIF, USB, etc.?) while you're pretty much still getting similar bang for your buck as far as audio conversion engines? Or is it more of a broadening of varieties to suit a greater ranges of tastes?
 
Meanwhile, audio improvements in LAME haven't really changed much in 6 years or so? (http://lame.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lame/lame/doc/html/history.html)

 

[FraGGleR]

I don't know how much the sound quality has improved, as some claim that the newer chips don't sound as good as some older ones.  Ultimate detail retrieval and presentation may have improved, but, my personal DAC history doesn't go back far enough to know.   What has improved immensely is the quality of sound for the money.  Very good sound is now quite accessible at all different budget levels, and quite a bit of this has happened in just the last couple years.
 
And as you have already mentioned, much improvement has occurred in USB based audio, particularly in the last couple years.  USB audio can be just as good if not better than spdif audio.
 
I would assume some older DACs should still hold their own in absolute sound quality, but they won't be as feature packed, nor will most handle the newer hi-resolution files.
 
When you are talking LAME, I am assuming you are talking about mp3s.  Mp3s are not considered audiophile quality, even at their highest quality, since bits are still cut during compression.  Lossless files like FLAC or ALAC are a must, with higher resolution files preferable.  DSD is a growing buzz word.  Not trying to tell you mp3 isn't good enough.  Just updating you before less civilized folk jump in and flame you.
 
What this all means is that you have more choices at more budget levels than ever before.  It is quite overwhelming which is why I keep putting off getting a new DAC despite being really curious about the next step up (and really, if it is worth the money).  The Concero HD really intrigues me and I will most likely wait until it releases in June before making a decision.
 
I highly advise checking out the local meet/get together forums to see if something is happening in Philly.  Meets are a great place to sample gear, especially headphones.  The For Sale forums are quite active here so you can buy and sell relatively easily.  

 

[Quaintative]

Yes, I do mean MP3 when I mention LAME.
 
And yea, I'm aware of the whole lossy vs. lossless codec argument. I've done plenty of A/B testing myself between MP3 and WAV back when I was encoding my own stuff off of my CDs. As it stands, my music collection is probably 1/3 high bit-rate 320/--alt preset standard, 1/3 worse than that, and 1/3 FLAC. Like my rig, it's simply what I've ended up with.
 
I'll definitely keep an eye out for meets and the For Sale forums.
 
Btw, I really appreciate all of your advice, especially from the Laughing Man (I love GITS:SAC)

 

[HamilcarBarca]

Quote:

Yes, I do mean MP3 when I mention LAME.
 
And yea, I'm aware of the whole lossy vs. lossless codec argument. I've done plenty of A/B testing myself between MP3 and WAV back when I was encoding my own stuff off of my CDs.
 

 
 
The tests you performed, and their results, are virtually always misunderstood by 'audiophiles.' Arguments to the contrary boil down to this:
 
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.
— Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)

 

[Quaintative]

hehehe .
 
I didn't expect to be quoted Macbeth, quite unique and funny (at least I find it so).
 
I'm glad that I wasn't lucky enough to have golden ears good enough to tell between --alt preset standard VBR, 320-bit MP3 and WAV. It saved me a lot of hard drive space. The one psychoacoustic modification I was concerned about back then was the signal attenuation above 22kHz or whatever they ended up setting it at, especially since blind tests seemed to show that the high frequencies made a difference in spite of the fact that the frequencies themselves were imperceptible. I wonder how high up the Ayre 5 minute full glide tone I can hear up to now. I think back in college I dropped out around early 4 minutes while a friend of mine got a headache listening up to 4:30....
 
To me, no headphone or speaker system yet has ever given me the feeling of actually playing within an orchestra (but to be fair, I have not listened to the Senn Orpheus/electrostatics/HD800s/etc./audiophile pinnacle/etc.). That's probably why I've settled on headphones that have been called "bright" and "fatiguing" on the high end such as the SR-325i's and the HD590. If your ear spends a lot of time 6 inches away from a violin f-hole, it will probably change your sense of what's "normal".
 
I don't do it anymore (and neither will I likely ever do it again, I'm 10 years of out practice and get tired after practicing scales for 15 minutes), but I definitely appreciate the fact that I have. I guess In a way, I'm looking to replace that by building a rig that'll give me that detail and presence and emotionality that I've missed. Or I could just go back to playing violin. It'd be arguable cheaper (but I need a tune-up, new strings, a new bridge, a new case....TIME TO PRACTICE....)