[adhoc]

As per thread title.

I'm looking for something that

- is an excellent tracker
- high compliance; it'll be paired with a Infinity Black Widow (ultra low effective mass - 3.4g)
- high output, so only high output MCs or MM
- has a presentation/tonality similar to that of the AKG k501 headphone

I know that last one is a bit odd, but I'm looking for a cart that sounds just like the k501. In other words, it should:

- excel at detail; airy and magical highs
- completely non-sibilant
- have a massively wide, airy soundstage
- has a certain presence and clarity with voices
- dig deep, but need not have the biggest bass

I understand that for $400, I may have to make compromises - but still, I look forward to your recommendations!

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif As per thread title. I'm looking for something that - is an excellent tracker - high compliance; it'll be paired with a Infinity Black Widow (ultra low effective mass - 3.4g) - high output, so only high output MCs or MM - has a presentation/tonality similar to that of the AKG k501 headphone

Interesting one. Matching an Ultra Low Mass tonearm per se is not that easy these days never mind your other requirements.
The most obvious course of action in this pricerange is to go vintage. Seek out pre '80s carts that were well known to work on the '70s SME 3009 S2 and especially the Series III as these were (are) the most common Low mass arms.
I'd say the Shure V15's are the most obvious choice. You can still find brand new V15VxMR's on the web or on ebay although they were discontinued a few years ago. Original stylii replacement stock is guaranteed by Shure until the end of the decade anyway. Sportsclay recently mentioned a Japanese company called Jico http://www.export-japan.com/marketin...x.php?cPath=18 who make a special tweaked up Super Analogue Stylus for the older V15's so you could look for a II or III.

I have a V15VMR which is very good indeed, very detailed and neutral accross the frequency range with serious bass. Sony reputedly use the V15VxMR for archive transcription and many regard these carts as some of the finest MM's ever made. It's also one of the best trackers I have seen.

Most say the V15III is the best one and don't like the IV. I just bought one on ebay for under 100USD so adding the price of the Jico SAS that's around 200USD.

Apart from this other famously low mass arm's were those on Bang and Olufsen turntables when they were still a force to be reckoned with in high end audio.
If you can get an adaptor for a standard headshell then I would seriously consider the Soundsmith SMMC2. http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/index.html . Soundsmith may have these adaptors or else there is always ebay. Also B&O agents in Germany on ebay still seem to have just about every spare part they ever produced.
These were very well reviewed in the Hi-Fi press mounted on non-B&O decks in the early '80s. For a little over 400USD a hand built cart with a Ruby cantilever actually sounds like quite good value these days.
On my Beogram it sounds beautiful, much smoother and more refined than the Shure and more like a MC but perhaps lacking in the V15's dynamic slam and bass extension. It's actually a Moving Iron.

Just as bespoke is The Cartridge Man (Len Gregory of HFN test disc fame) Music Maker III another MI. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/musicmaker_e.html
this is about twice your budget but may well be the best available for your tonearm and is widely lauded by reviewers around the world, so certainly worth considering.

The only MC option I can think of may be some of the '70s Ortofons like the MC20/MC30. If you can find an example with a worn out tip but an intact cantilever for under 100USD then somewhere like Garrott Bros in Australia will be able to re-tip it for you probably better than the original, within your budget.

 

[lini]

Memepool's infos mostly seconded (though I'd think that Dual's ULM arms actually were the most widespread ultra low mass designs...). Anyway, the days of high compliance carts suited for that kind of arms are long gone - otherwise I'd immediately suggest to go for the Elac ESG796HSP, a superb high-compliance MM with Van-den-Hul stylus. Today, I'd probably suggest to try Ortofon' OM30Super/OM40Super - for a K501 lover, these should come quite close to your desired presentation...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lini /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dual's ULM arms actually were the most widespread ultra low mass designs...

Yes of course you are probably right as far as integrated turntables go, I was thinking in terms of arms which were sold separately and could be mounted on any table.

Those Ortofon's also seconded. Also vintage MM Ortofon's like the VMS 10/15/20/30 series are a good 2nd hand option as the original Stylii are still widely available. I have a VMS20E which is really lovely sounding, very smooth and refined, typically Ortofon. Cost under 100USD including a new stylus.
If this is the sonic signature closest to the AKG's then I would definitely look into the B&O MMC2. This is a far superior cart to any of the cheaper Ortofon's if you can get hold of the mounting adaptor. I have seen these mounted on Linn LP12's with Grace tonearms in the past, they were really highly regarded and they sound truly excellent. Also tracks at 1 gram so is very kind to your vinyl.

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes of course you are probably right as far as integrated turntables go, I was thinking in terms of arms which were sold separately and could be mounted on any table.

I already thought you were, but I wanted to nitpick a bit just for the fun of it...

Anyway, VMS series seconded, but only >= VMS20, 'cause iirc the models below are lower in compliance... And of course one could also try the 530II or 540II (alias VinylMaster Blue & Silver), but the OM30Super and OM40Super are more K501-like with their less juicy sound.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lini /img/forum/go_quote.gif I already thought you were, but I wanted to nitpick a bit just for the fun of it... Anyway, VMS series seconded, but only >= VMS20, 'cause iirc the models below are lower in compliance...

doh

VMS series like most Ortofon MM's are also upgradable by just buying a better stylus from higher up the range as well. VMS20E is much easier to find than the 30 as well.

 

[JXBJXB]

People over at the Vinyl Asylum (www.audioasylum.com) have been freaking out over the past few months concerning what Audio-Technica did to their AT440ML cartridge. It is now called the AT440MLa, and is available new for around $85 plus shipping.

I don't have a pair of K501 for reference, but I do have the older AT440ML, and I can tell you that it:

-tracks everything you throw at it in the proper arm
-is high compliance
-has a high (4.0) mv output and is MM
-is very detailed due to the line-contact stylus
-has no sibilance
-has a wide soundstage (but I wouldn't call it massive - my Ortofon X5-MC bests it in that respect)
-voices sound good (but see my comment on the JICO below)
-bass sounds natural

Here's the thing. Most people found the original 440 that I have too sizzly in the highs - the new versions' highs are supposed to be tons better. For the price you pretty much could buy the cartridge, try it for a few months, and sell it for slightly less than what you paid if it doesn't work out.

I have a vintage Shure V15III with JICO SAS on hand as well. The JICO sounds more balanced, overall, than the AT but the output isn't as high, and the tracking isn't quite as good, and the soundstage isn't as wide. But it certainly bests the AT in terms of the midrange and vocals. And it slays my old Shure V15VxMR, which I found wooly and imprecise compared to the JICO/V15III combo (but the newer Shure did track better.)

I can also recommend the Ortofon X-series of high output moving coils, but the two cartridges mentioned above kill those in terms of tracking and compliance figures, so they won't meet your requirements.

 

[jamesb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JXBJXB /img/forum/go_quote.gif People over at the Vinyl Asylum (www.audioasylum.com) have been freaking out over the past few months concerning what Audio-Technica did to their AT440ML cartridge. It is now called the AT440MLa, and is available new for around $85 plus shipping. I don't have a pair of K501 for reference, but I do have the older AT440ML, and I can tell you that it: -tracks everything you throw at it in the proper arm -is high compliance -has a high (4.0) mv output and is MM -is very detailed due to the line-contact stylus -has no sibilance -has a wide soundstage (but I wouldn't call it massive - my Ortofon X5-MC bests it in that respect) -voices sound good (but see my comment on the JICO below) -bass sounds natural Here's the thing. Most people found the original 440 that I have too sizzly in the highs - the new versions' highs are supposed to be tons better. For the price you pretty much could buy the cartridge, try it for a few months, and sell it for slightly less than what you paid if it doesn't work out. I have a vintage Shure V15III with JICO SAS on hand as well. The JICO sounds more balanced, overall, than the AT but the output isn't as high, and the tracking isn't quite as good, and the soundstage isn't as wide. But it certainly bests the AT in terms of the midrange and vocals. And it slays my old Shure V15VxMR, which I found wooly and imprecise compared to the JICO/V15III combo (but the newer Shure did track better.) I can also recommend the Ortofon X-series of high output moving coils, but the two cartridges mentioned above kill those in terms of tracking and compliance figures, so they won't meet your requirements.

i've got an at440mla and i love it - especially the highs, but i dont have any experience with more expensive carts so dont have anything to compare it to, i did do quite a bit of reading on various forums when i was choosing what cart to get though...

i do remember hearing some recordings someone had made over at steve hoffmans forum comparing the 440mla and the shure v15III (i think, my memory may be playing tricks on me.. - definatly one of the v15 line)
the shure had a lot more bass, personaly it sounded a bit sludgy to me, but thats largely a matter of taste. Given you wanted something not to bass heavy then the shure line may not be the best - i think they are generaly know to be a bit more bass heavy than audio technias for example.

anyway, i think the at440mla is worth considering, if only because its currently in production (unlike some of the shure carts mentioned) so getting a replacement stylus wont be a problem (i hear the shures are getting quite expensive), plus its very cheap, so its not a missive risk if you dont like it.

thats my opinion as a compete vinyl noob, so take it with a pinch of salt

 

[adhoc]

Thanks all for the recommendations so far.

I was initially considering the following:

- Stanton 681EEE mkIII
- Audio Technica AT440MLa
- Audio Technica AT150MLX
- Ortofon OM40

Would anyone be able to tell me a bit more about the OM40?

Finally, I would prefer to avoid vintage cartridges due to 1. cost and 2. reliability. Let me elaborate -

I understand that the Shure V15 line is highly regarded, but IMO while it may have been a great deal in the past, at the ~$500 prices it is commonly bid up to nowadays on eBay, it simply isn't a great or even good deal anymore. Add in the situation with the V15VxMR styli (i.e. almost-impossible-to-find at a reasonable price) and the risks involved in buying second-hand and you have a pretty bad scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesb /img/forum/go_quote.gif i do remember hearing some recordings someone had made over at steve hoffmans forum comparing the 440mla and the shure v15III (i think, my memory may be playing tricks on me.. - definatly one of the v15 line) the shure had a lot more bass, personaly it sounded a bit sludgy to me, but thats largely a matter of taste. Given you wanted something not to bass heavy then the shure line may not be the best - i think they are generaly know to be a bit more bass heavy than audio technias for example.

That was the M97xE. A completely different cartridge from the V15 line - the stylus is also different (elliptical) when compared to the later (highly regarded) members of the V15 line.

 

[jamesb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif That was the M97xE. A completely different cartridge from the V15 line - the stylus is also different (elliptical) when compared to the later (highly regarded) members of the V15 line.

oops, need to cut back on the wine.
sounds like you know a lot more about it than me anyway

so, um, carry on and ignore my ramblings....

 

[ssportclay]

Any good MM cartridge will probable work Ok for you.You can add the Goldring 1042 and the Ortofon 540MKII to your list if you are considering only new cartridges.Your problem is your 3.4 gram Black Widow which will match best with a vintage cartridge.A Shure V15 type 3 or type 4 is a good option because Jico supports them with their SAS design and not the newer types due to rights issues.Old cartridges really don't go bad over time and a new Jico SAS stylus will transform an older undamaged Shure V15 into a new cartridge.Super light tonearms have gone out of style and the newer MM and high output MC cartridges like tonearms a little heavier.

 

[JXBJXB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your problem is your 3.4 gram Black Widow which will match best with a vintage cartridge.A Shure V15 type 3 or type 4 is a good option because Jico supports them with their SAS design and not the newer types due to rights issues.Old cartridges really don't go bad over time and a new Jico SAS stylus will transform an older undamaged Shure V15 into a new cartridge.Super light tonearms have gone out of style and the newer MM and high output MC cartridges like tonearms a little heavier.

I second this. While I'd love to have a Black Widow, it really would limit you in terms of cartridge choices. I have no idea what the "killer combo" was when the Widow was still on the market - for some reason, I want to say I saw a lot of ADC cartridges paired up with them. Acutex also comes to mind.

Jico is really doing vinylphiles a huge favor with their SAS line. For roughly $100 + an old cartridge body that will never go bad, you 've got a world-class moving-magnet cartridge. The SAS betters just about every stylus Shure ever made, except for perhaps the last Micro-Ridge ones, which as you pointed out, are crazy-expensive now.

A huge sleeper and great deal would be to find a M91ED high-track body for around $10 (common as dirt) and then the $97 SAS stylus for it.

I have no personal experience with the OM40 but have heard very good things about it. Also, there's a guy named "Juki" that sometimes posts new Ortofon product on eBay - his prices are about half of retail, and that's how I got my X5-MC. If you're serious about Ortofon, PM me for his contact info.

 

[adhoc]

Once again, thanks all for your replies.

This is going to sound a little... elementary, but I really couldn't find the answer elsewhere.

Basically, my particular Black Widow was the top specc'ed variant of that design. It was also the last BW model to make it to the market, which means that it has a graphite tonearm as opposed to a carbon fibre one. Graphite is much stiffer and tougher that carbon fibre, and is basically a heck of a lot more difficult to make.

It also has an integrated metal damping trough on the "cartridge side" - the earlier BW models had a plastic trough literally bolted onto the "counterweight side" of the arm.

BUT, frankly, I'm not sure what purpose this damping trough serves. Heck, I'm not even sure what I should fill it up with!

Would anyone care to clear this up to for me? Will the presence of the damping trough increase the range of cartridges I can choose from?

Help!

 

[adhoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay /img/forum/go_quote.gif A Shure V15 type 3 or type 4 is a good option because Jico supports them with their SAS design and not the newer types due to rights issues. Old cartridges really don't go bad over time and a new Jico SAS stylus will transform an older undamaged Shure V15 into a new cartridge.Super light tonearms have gone out of style and the newer MM and high output MC cartridges like tonearms a little heavier.

ssportclay, 2 questions:

1. Aren't the v15 type3/type4 models not really that highly regarded? I had the distinct impression that the VMR and VxMR models were the ones that were hot ****, so to speak.

2. Old cartridges don't really go bad over time? I'm pretty darned sure that the suspension, usually composed of one or a few rubber grommets, would react with ozone in the air and degrade over time. Eventually, the cart would be riding so low that it would touch the record if it was warped.

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif 2. Old cartridges don't really go bad over time? I'm pretty darned sure that the suspension, usually composed of one or a few rubber grommets, would react with ozone in the air and degrade over time. Eventually, the cart would be riding so low that it would touch the record if it was warped.

The cantilever suspension is part of the replacable stylus assembly, so if you combine an old cartridge body with a new needle, the result is basically an as good as new cartridge.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini