Reciever as a Preamp - Quality Concern?

[Mozhoven]

Some of you may be following my other thread regarding the differences in quality between Onkyo and Yamaha. The concensus so far is that I forget those two brands and go for a nice pre-amp/amp situation, perhaps NAD or Cambridge Soundworks.

Well, I've got a chance to get two Marantz MA-500 mono amps and am wondering if it is worth it to run them off of my Yamaha reciever's pre-outs. I assume if I do that, I will bypass the Yamaha's integrated amp and defer to the Marantz amps.

Marantz MA-500 Reviews

Will this work out will with my studio setup? (see list below).

My main question is if the pre-amp's quality is as important as the amps?

 

[infinitesymphony]

No, realistically, the preamp isn't asked to do much more than attenuate the volume, so it's not as important as the power amplifier, though it will matter if you're relying on the preamp for D/A conversion and multi-channel decoding.

 

[Mozhoven]

Nothing fancy, just pure two-channel music listening for me. I will be using the sub pre-out though, which is fixed at 200hz below. Will this be a problem?

I assume that my speakers will still receive full-range even if I am using the sub pre-out, correct?

 

[infinitesymphony]

That should be an optional setting on your receiver. For example, setting speakers to "Small" routes frequencies below the crossover to the sub, while the "Large" setting routes all frequencies to the mains. If all speakers are set to "Large," only the .1 LFE tracks in movies will be routed to the sub, unless you set the preamp to "Subwoofer Plus," which will route all frequencies below the crossover to your sub, even with two-channel music.

Edit: Also, 200 Hz is much too high for a crossover; are you sure it's 200 Hz? If so, you should still be able to hook into your subwoofer's adjustable crossover input. Frequencies above 100 Hz or so can be localized, which could potentially collapse your stereo image, since some of the lower-mids will appear to be coming from the subwoofer. 80 Hz and lower is recommended, especially if your mains can handle frequencies around that point without roll-off.

 

[Mozhoven]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. The manual says that "all frequencies above 200hz are filtered out only leaving the bass range." As for any additional features (selecting speaker size, etc), I'm afraid there are none. Do you think that the mains will still receive full range while I also use the sub pre-out? The manual isn't clear on that.

So, the adjustable crossover on the sub will still work? I was afraid that it only worked when using the speaker level inputs.

I'm hoping to have a chance to play around with this all soon. My sub just came in, but my two Marantz amps won't be here till next week. Thanks for all the patient advice, it is really appreciated.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Ah, I see... I guess that's the price of having new technology during a transition period. That receiver looks to be one of the first Dolby Digital models, when the emphasis on most receivers was still on pseudo-surround "Pro Logic" encoding, so it's not too surprising to find its surround features lacking. I'll bet it would make a great two-channel amp all by itself; it certainly has the specifications and high-dollar pedigree to be one. This is one case where it will be tough to tell how much of an upgrade a separate power amplifier will be, unless your speakers are especially hard to drive.

Anyway, my guess is that the receiver sums the left and right channels and sends them through a low-pass filter with a 200 Hz cut-off frequency and passes unmodified full-range signals to all other speakers no matter what. You'll want to use a SPL meter to check the levels while running a series of low-frequency sine waves. That way, you can adjust your subwoofer's crossover frequency and volume level to match with the mains in order to prevent a dip or bump in the response.

 

[Mozhoven]

Yeah,

It's definitely 1st or 2nd gen Dolby Digital. But as a two-channel system I'm sure it would do just fine. As it stands, my speakers sound pretty good connected to it (without an amp).

That being said, I've never heard them any other way. They are 6ohm speakers and can handle up to 200 watts, so I'm keen on hearing them amped. According to what I am reading out there, amping makes a big difference in detail, clarity, and soundstage.

I figure I'll get the two Marantz monoblocks and try them out using the Yamaha as a preamp. I'll try them out while comparing it to an unamped hookup and see how much of a difference there is. Luckily, these amps appear to be quite popular and I should have no trouble unloading them if need-be.

I'm really excited to get thing hooked up, but I won't be able to do it proper till my 300 sqft. studio is finished being built. Right now, all of my studio equipment is down in my dank, musty basement. Unfortunately, there is where I will be doing much of my experimenting.

You see, I need to figure all this stuff out before I finish the studio as I am building in all the cabling into the wall. I would like to know how I'm connecting everything before sheetrocking the place.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Yeah, high quality monoblocks should be an improvement. You may eventually want a better preamp or D/A to compete with the rest of the system, but it should be nice as-is. One correction: receivers have their own built-in power amplifiers, which is what allows them to power speakers--speakers must always be amplified somewhere.

Congrats on the studio! What sort of work will you be doing there?

 

[Mozhoven]

I'm a sculptor and am working on a space big enough for the large sculpture I am planning. Ceilings will be about 11' high and the building will open out onto my driveway for easy loading.

I'll tell you what I'm really looking forward to is being able to listen to my stereo 8 hours a day. I rarely get a chance to even listen to it for half-an-hour. Mostly occasional headphone listening for the past 10 years.

If you want to see my work, check out the link below in my sig. (you'll need to copy and paste it). My avatar is one example of my work.

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[devotee101]

How did this end up sounding? I'd like to do the same with my Sony STR-DA1200ES which is currently driving a pair of Monitor Audio RS5 floorstanders.

 

[Drag0n]

What is this, the blind leading the blind? Or deaf rather.

The preamp absolutely matters. Its is an amplifier, abiet a low powered one, but it still has a damping factor and a sound and makes a definate difference in the total sound of the system and should not be a weak link in the chain. Get a decent preamp for sure.
Its not just a volume attenuator. If that was the case, then nobody would spend $5000 and more for one.

A headphone amp is just such a preamp.

 

[infinitesymphony]

He asked how much importance a preamplifier had. With speakers, the power amplifier is more important than the preamplifier. Think of it this way: $5,000 preamp through $50 power amp versus $50 used home theater receiver through $5,000 power amplifier. They both have limitations, but only one will properly drive the speakers.

 

[bigshot]

Preamps are the easiest thing to design to be clean sounding. In the grand scheme of things, there are much more important things to worry about. A reasonably good receiver should have great preamp circuitry.

See ya
Steve

 

[Mozhoven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devotee101 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How did this end up sounding? I'd like to do the same with my Sony STR-DA1200ES which is currently driving a pair of Monitor Audio RS5 floorstanders.

When I had the monoblock amps hooked up to the Yamaha RX-V850 as a preamp it sounded pretty good IMHO.

But to answer my question about preamp quality, I have to say it does matter - at least in my case. I managed to snag a Marantz SR5000 receiver on Craigslist for $40. That's right - $40. I'm using it as a preamp and the quality is definitely improved. The sound is much more mellow and articulate. Perhaps it's because the amps and receiver are made by the same company, or just that the receiver is of a high quality - better than the Yamaha at any rate. Plus, the amps are designed to be used best with other Marantz products, like the auto-on feature. Also, the SR5000 has a really cool volume control. Very precise, takes 4 or 5 revolutions to get it to a comfortable range and can be adjusted to that "perfect" volume with the over/under dance till you get close to what you want. This receiver may be an "entry-level" hi-fi component, but it is light-years ahead of the mass-market equipment out there.

So, I agree- get a decent preamp. I've seen several Marantz dedicated pre-amps go for under $100 on Ebay the past few days - so they exist.